A certain ultra right wing enthusiast posted a fancy introduction to the VHP here. It comes straight from the 'Sampark Vibhag' of the Vishwa Hatred Parishad in Mumbai, so I guess it's official.
This certain 'information' section attempts to fool somebody by providing 'examples' of suppression of 'Hindu interests'. Here are some (all) of the tall claims laid bare.
To begin with, there's no mention of the word 'minority' in the UN charter. However, the UN Sub-Committee on Prevention of Discrimination and Protection of Minorities defines 'minority' as:
"A group of citizens of a State, constituting a numerical minority and in a non-dominant position in that State, endowed with ethnic, religious or linguistic characteristics which differ from those of the majority of the population, having a sense of solidarity with one another, motivated, if only implicitly, by a collective will to survive and whose aim it is to achieve equality with the majority in fact and in law."
Besides, what do you suggest we call 15%? A Majority? :p Lame attempt, this one.
In 1989, The BJP National Executive passed a resolution demanding the construction of a Ram Temple over Babri Masjid. The same resolution urged all parties to "to adopt the same approach in respect to Ayodhya that Nehru government did with regard to Somnath".
So I guess Gandhi didn't 'prevail upon' Nehru and Sardar Patel after all. (Beats me why a great man and devout Hindu, who had the name of Ram on his lips when Hindutva murdered him, would want to scuttle a Somnath Temple reconstruction and build mosques instead?!)
The DPM, Sardar Patel, took a pledge to reconstruct the temple on November 3, 1947 (Despite Gandhi 'prevailing upon' him, and the work was finished in December 1995. Without any problems.
[It might be interesting to note, however, that – being a true secularist - Nehru said in a letter in 1950: "I have been feeling a little uncomfortable over your references to the rebuilding of Somnath Temple. As the government, we cannot undertake the building of religious edifices".]
There just aren't enough Nehrus around.
Even if this preposterous claim is somehow TRUE, tell me how do the teachings of the Bible, or the Quran or the Hindu texts vary? I thought the teachings and principles were the same.
And dude. You seem terribly confused with the terms Majority and Minority. Are you sure that the Christians are a 'minority' in Mizoram? Last time I checked, it was around 87% of their population.
Is that 'sucking up to a 'minority'' ? Surely, it can't be too different from PM wannabe Advani's pathetic attempts to declare Ayodhya a 'National Sentiment'? :p I'm just glad Mr. Gandhi didn't suck up so much that he had to pull down temples to build churches.
India's a union of states.. and all minorities and backward classes were declared on a National level, if I'm not mistaken. And it's not a simple numbers game.. there's also history behind it. Read the definition of 'minority' again.
If everything liberal and non-Hindutva and non-fundamentalist in this country is 'Mercenary', then I'm proud to be mercenary! Surely, HinduJagruti is not mercenary?
I don't see why you have a problem.
I didn't have to do any research for this point. Being a Muslim myself, I personally feel going on Hajj on borrowed/state money isn't very nice or Islamic. Hajj is only for those who can afford it and are in good enough health to undertake the trip.
I seriously didn't know that Christian pilgrims were 'given Rs. 20 000'. (Pilgrimage to where?).Someone enlighten me on this.
Finally, I know quite a few of my friends who have made the Amarnath pilgrimage and returned quite happily. If they received any bullets, it's carefully hid away along with the rest of their souvenirs from the native Kashmiris. I did hear words like 'hospitable', 'warm' and 'pleasant', though. (Just like the 'Ram Sethu' became a 'centuries old' holy shrine over the last couple of years, even the Amarnath pilgrimage has suddenly turned into a 'bloody affair' overnight with the pilgrims braving bomb blasts and bullets all of a sudden. More HIndutva propaganda.)
Dr. Pravin Togadia hasn't been arrested enough times. He's been let off too often on 'flimsy grounds' if anything. Sedition ought to carry larger sentences.
The Shahi Imam of Jama Masjid condemns UPA-Left for being anti-Muslim. The entire file and rank of RSS/Sangh Parivar condemns UPA-Left (and the rest of the non-hindutva world) for being 'anti-Hindu'. You have a lot in common. So what's the difference?
When a bomb blast hit the gates of Jama Masjid, the Shahi Imam called for peace. On the other hand, Narendra Modi and Togadia called for genocide and violence. The Shahi Imam holds no government office and is less accountable to the citizens than a Chief Minister.
The Shahi Imam can board a plane to US, and no one will stop him. Not so for Narendra Modi.
I still wonder why the Shahi Imam is a 'seditious anti-national', while Pravin Togadia is a 'nationalist'. :p
Hogwash. I tried to do some research on this point. The only website that seemed to back this ridiculous claim had the unfortunate name of 'pseudosecularism.blogspot.com'. So, I never bothered to waste my time.
This certain 'information' section attempts to fool somebody by providing 'examples' of suppression of 'Hindu interests'. Here are some (all) of the tall claims laid bare.
1. The UN charter says that a minority means less than 10% of the population. But Muslims constitute over 15 percent of the Indian population. Yet they are called a minority.
To begin with, there's no mention of the word 'minority' in the UN charter. However, the UN Sub-Committee on Prevention of Discrimination and Protection of Minorities defines 'minority' as:
"A group of citizens of a State, constituting a numerical minority and in a non-dominant position in that State, endowed with ethnic, religious or linguistic characteristics which differ from those of the majority of the population, having a sense of solidarity with one another, motivated, if only implicitly, by a collective will to survive and whose aim it is to achieve equality with the majority in fact and in law."
Besides, what do you suggest we call 15%? A Majority? :p Lame attempt, this one.
2. Gandhiji prevented the construction of Somnath temple with government funds. But in 1948 he prevailed upon Nehru and Sardar Patel to renovate Delhi's mosques at government expense.
In 1989, The BJP National Executive passed a resolution demanding the construction of a Ram Temple over Babri Masjid. The same resolution urged all parties to "to adopt the same approach in respect to Ayodhya that Nehru government did with regard to Somnath".
So I guess Gandhi didn't 'prevail upon' Nehru and Sardar Patel after all. (Beats me why a great man and devout Hindu, who had the name of Ram on his lips when Hindutva murdered him, would want to scuttle a Somnath Temple reconstruction and build mosques instead?!)
The DPM, Sardar Patel, took a pledge to reconstruct the temple on November 3, 1947 (Despite Gandhi 'prevailing upon' him, and the work was finished in December 1995. Without any problems.
[It might be interesting to note, however, that – being a true secularist - Nehru said in a letter in 1950: "I have been feeling a little uncomfortable over your references to the rebuilding of Somnath Temple. As the government, we cannot undertake the building of religious edifices".]
There just aren't enough Nehrus around.
3. Sucking up to minorities reached its peak when Rajiv Gandhi declared that if the people of Mizoram voted the Congress to power, it would run the government on the basis of the teachings of the Bible.
Even if this preposterous claim is somehow TRUE, tell me how do the teachings of the Bible, or the Quran or the Hindu texts vary? I thought the teachings and principles were the same.
And dude. You seem terribly confused with the terms Majority and Minority. Are you sure that the Christians are a 'minority' in Mizoram? Last time I checked, it was around 87% of their population.
Is that 'sucking up to a 'minority'' ? Surely, it can't be too different from PM wannabe Advani's pathetic attempts to declare Ayodhya a 'National Sentiment'? :p I'm just glad Mr. Gandhi didn't suck up so much that he had to pull down temples to build churches.
4. Muslims and Christians are considered as minorities in Maharashtra, UP, Bihar etc. But Hindus in Mizoram, J&K, Nagaland, etc who are in a minority there are not accorded minority status.
India's a union of states.. and all minorities and backward classes were declared on a National level, if I'm not mistaken. And it's not a simple numbers game.. there's also history behind it. Read the definition of 'minority' again.
5. Congress politicians and the mercenary pro Christian, pro Muslim English media hysterically scream about the death of Muslims in the Muslim provoked Godhra episode. But their silence about the extermination of lakhs of Hindus in Kashmir is thunderously deafening.Extermination of 'lakhs of Hindus' in Kashmir? Come again? When exactly were lakhs of Hindus "exterminated" in Kashmir? Don't insult and damage the rightful cause of thousands of Kashmiri Pundits by inventing such utter nonsensical figures and fomenting trouble. Oops! You're VHP! That's what you DO!!
If everything liberal and non-Hindutva and non-fundamentalist in this country is 'Mercenary', then I'm proud to be mercenary! Surely, HinduJagruti is not mercenary?
6. When Christian and Muslim schools are allowed to teach the Bible and the Quran, Hindu schools are prohibited from teaching the Ramayana ,the Mahabharata and the Bhagavad-Gita GeetaThey aren't? I went to a good Christian school and they did teach the Bible to the Catholic students. My cousins went to a Hindu school, and they learnt about Hinduism, Hindu dharm, attended discourses by various swamis, meditation, yoga, and began each morning with a Hindu prayer. I even collect monthly magazines from that school that contain hindu mythological stories and pictures of Hindu godesses.
I don't see why you have a problem.
7. Muslims and Christian pilgrims are given Rs 20,000 as Hajj and Holy land subsidies. But Hindus are denied the same for their pilgrimages. On the contrary, Hindu pilgrims traveling at their own cost to Amaranth receive bullets.
I didn't have to do any research for this point. Being a Muslim myself, I personally feel going on Hajj on borrowed/state money isn't very nice or Islamic. Hajj is only for those who can afford it and are in good enough health to undertake the trip.
I seriously didn't know that Christian pilgrims were 'given Rs. 20 000'. (Pilgrimage to where?).Someone enlighten me on this.
Finally, I know quite a few of my friends who have made the Amarnath pilgrimage and returned quite happily. If they received any bullets, it's carefully hid away along with the rest of their souvenirs from the native Kashmiris. I did hear words like 'hospitable', 'warm' and 'pleasant', though. (Just like the 'Ram Sethu' became a 'centuries old' holy shrine over the last couple of years, even the Amarnath pilgrimage has suddenly turned into a 'bloody affair' overnight with the pilgrims braving bomb blasts and bullets all of a sudden. More HIndutva propaganda.)
8. A nationalist like Dr. Pravin Togadia has been arrested many times on flimsy grounds. But the Shahi Imam of Jumma Masjid has got off scot-free for his various seditious anti national, pro Pakistani actions and utterances.
Dr. Pravin Togadia hasn't been arrested enough times. He's been let off too often on 'flimsy grounds' if anything. Sedition ought to carry larger sentences.
The Shahi Imam of Jama Masjid condemns UPA-Left for being anti-Muslim. The entire file and rank of RSS/Sangh Parivar condemns UPA-Left (and the rest of the non-hindutva world) for being 'anti-Hindu'. You have a lot in common. So what's the difference?
When a bomb blast hit the gates of Jama Masjid, the Shahi Imam called for peace. On the other hand, Narendra Modi and Togadia called for genocide and violence. The Shahi Imam holds no government office and is less accountable to the citizens than a Chief Minister.
The Shahi Imam can board a plane to US, and no one will stop him. Not so for Narendra Modi.
I still wonder why the Shahi Imam is a 'seditious anti-national', while Pravin Togadia is a 'nationalist'. :p
9. Major Hindu temples are government controlled. Revenues from these temples are used to fund Muslim madrassas that teach hatred, sedition and terror. For instance in 2002, Karnataka's income from temples was Rs.72 crores. Out of this Rs.50 crores was given to madrassas, Rs.10 crores to Christian churches and only Rs.10 crores to temples.
Hogwash. I tried to do some research on this point. The only website that seemed to back this ridiculous claim had the unfortunate name of 'pseudosecularism.blogspot.com'. So, I never bothered to waste my time.
10. The government allows muharram processions in Hindu localities. But Hindu processions are banned in Muslim localities
Sometimes I honestly wonder if they serve crack in those terrorist Shakhas. Which piece of legislation in Indian law precisely forbids Hindu processions in Muslim localities - or any public locality in Indian territory?!
11. A Pakistani becomes Indian when he marries a Kashmiri girl. But the husband of a Hindu Kashmiri girl cannot become a resident of J&K. So tomorrow if the ISI Chief from Pakistan marries a Kashmiri girl he will become an Indian citizen and can even try to become the PM, just like Sonia Gandhi.
I'm afraid it's not that simple. The Citizenship laws govern that even if a foreigner marries an Indian girl, he still has to have resided in the country for a period of seven years or more just to become eligible for an application for Indian citizenship. After that he has to go through a series of bureaucratic hurdles starting with Registration Form II.. and I assure, it's no easy task.
Especially not for an 'ISI chief'.
:p
As for residing in Kashmir... forget Kashmir, you can't even travel to many of the North Eastern states without a RAP… a permit. Ever wondered why?
This ridiculous inanity deserves no response… but then, neither do any of these demented rants. So here goes anyway.
Once again you're confused with the word 'majority'. The National Crime Records Bureau says that the majority of inmates in Indian jails are… well, just criminal. However, in a country of over 80% Hindus, it's not surprising that 60% - 70% belong to the majority community. (Not Muslims. Majority, in this case, meaning MORE in numbers! :p)
Criminal tendencies have more connection to social background, poverty, illiteracy, access to legal aid, etc (do look at the complete prison statistics) than religion. It's common sense. But this is VHP. There's no grounds for common sense here.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but when you're locked up inside a grimy, dirty prison – or kept in solitary confinement, or hung upside down by your heels, it's not very easy to perform Namaz or pooja. I wouldn't recommend it.
As for your second assertion that Sonia Gandhi, at the behest of the Vatican, has not allowed this HH the Sankaracharya to perform his Pooja. This is the scoop of the Century!! You could make millions if you sell this exclusive to the world press, and the Vatican might even kindly sponsor your stay in an asylum of your choice!
Pray what does the Vatican care if a certain HH the Sankaracharya offers a Pooja in jail or not? How does it bother them in the least?!
Aren't you insulting the collective intelligence of the entire VHP organization with absolutely ludicrous claims such as this one? Oh wait... this is the VHP. You don't need facts. Just anarchy, chaos and violence at any cost.
Balderdash. Everyone knows that the Nepali King had full Indian government support (even when he didn't have Nepali support!) And I don't mean just Gyanendra… The relationship has gone back generations.
The Nepali King, Queen, Prince, Army chief, delegations, foreign ministers have all visited India and stayed as state guests several times… and Indian leaders have officially visited Nepal. Thank you very much.
Personal laws are also applicable to Hindus in this country.. and the scope extends beyond marriage. It includes property, inheritance, etc. If you really want to get married to four wives, and are feeling frustrated because of it, I suggest you convert to Islam! This is a free country! :p
I happen to live not too far away from Jakkur Air Field… And it's not just open to Benny Hinn, but also to Sri Sri Ravi Shankar of the Art of Living foundation for his grand silver jubilee bash where Chief Justices, Governors, Vice Presidents, etc were in attendance - and a hundred other functions over the years.
'Immersion frenzy' is a derogatory term? Since when? And why is Hindustan Times is so 'brutally suppressing' the Hindu community? :p
Yes, very few - and very wrong too.
More than enough to reaffirm the VHP as a libelous, clueless and desperate organization. This piece of junk I quote comes straight from their propaganda section.
Propaganda is one thing, but these Vishwa Hindutva terrorists not only attempt to create utter confusion with their incoherent banalities, but actually find audience among their ultra-fundamentalist ilk. Post this same post on a HinduJagruti – and you'll actually find real human beings nodding along in astonished agreement. (Comments such as 'I agree with every line' and 'so true!!' are expected in response to such junk!.)
Any utterance by these maniacs can be ripped apart by a fourth grader.
I've had enough of this Violent Hindutva Parishad. It's time these anti-nationals, along with their extended family (the RSS, Shiv Sena, MNS, Bajrang Dal...) are banned and booked for sedition, terrorism and libel.
God Bless India!
- yaamyn.
Especially not for an 'ISI chief'.
:p
As for residing in Kashmir... forget Kashmir, you can't even travel to many of the North Eastern states without a RAP… a permit. Ever wondered why?
12. A majority of criminals in Indian jails are Muslims. They are allowed to offer Namaz in jail. But when HH the Sankaracharya was imprisoned on trumped up charges following a conspiracy carried out by Sonia Maino at the behest of the Vatican, he was not allowed to perform pooja.
This ridiculous inanity deserves no response… but then, neither do any of these demented rants. So here goes anyway.
Once again you're confused with the word 'majority'. The National Crime Records Bureau says that the majority of inmates in Indian jails are… well, just criminal. However, in a country of over 80% Hindus, it's not surprising that 60% - 70% belong to the majority community. (Not Muslims. Majority, in this case, meaning MORE in numbers! :p)
Criminal tendencies have more connection to social background, poverty, illiteracy, access to legal aid, etc (do look at the complete prison statistics) than religion. It's common sense. But this is VHP. There's no grounds for common sense here.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but when you're locked up inside a grimy, dirty prison – or kept in solitary confinement, or hung upside down by your heels, it's not very easy to perform Namaz or pooja. I wouldn't recommend it.
As for your second assertion that Sonia Gandhi, at the behest of the Vatican, has not allowed this HH the Sankaracharya to perform his Pooja. This is the scoop of the Century!! You could make millions if you sell this exclusive to the world press, and the Vatican might even kindly sponsor your stay in an asylum of your choice!
Pray what does the Vatican care if a certain HH the Sankaracharya offers a Pooja in jail or not? How does it bother them in the least?!
Aren't you insulting the collective intelligence of the entire VHP organization with absolutely ludicrous claims such as this one? Oh wait... this is the VHP. You don't need facts. Just anarchy, chaos and violence at any cost.
13. The Pope was invited to India as a State Guest. But the Hindu King of Nepal was not permitted to attend a makara sankranti function in Nagpur in 1965.
Balderdash. Everyone knows that the Nepali King had full Indian government support (even when he didn't have Nepali support!) And I don't mean just Gyanendra… The relationship has gone back generations.
The Nepali King, Queen, Prince, Army chief, delegations, foreign ministers have all visited India and stayed as state guests several times… and Indian leaders have officially visited Nepal. Thank you very much.
14. Muslims are allowed to follow their personal law that includes the right to marry four wives. But Hindus are convicted for bigamy if they do so.
Personal laws are also applicable to Hindus in this country.. and the scope extends beyond marriage. It includes property, inheritance, etc. If you really want to get married to four wives, and are feeling frustrated because of it, I suggest you convert to Islam! This is a free country! :p
15, Bhajans are prohibited in Mumbai's local trains. But Muslims are allowed to sing quawalis in trains.They are? Or is it yet another concoction to add a divisive tinge to an already unacceptable sermon by VHP terrorists? :p
16. Bangalore's Jakkur airfield belonging to the defence ministry was not allowed to be used for a Dutta Jayanti function. But the same airfield was allotted to the rabidly anti Hindu Benny Hinn for his traitorous function to convert Hindus.
I happen to live not too far away from Jakkur Air Field… And it's not just open to Benny Hinn, but also to Sri Sri Ravi Shankar of the Art of Living foundation for his grand silver jubilee bash where Chief Justices, Governors, Vice Presidents, etc were in attendance - and a hundred other functions over the years.
17. Hindustan Times termed the Ganesh immersion festival as "immersion frenzy" But does not dare describe Muharram and Good Friday processions inn such derogatory term.
'Immersion frenzy' is a derogatory term? Since when? And why is Hindustan Times is so 'brutally suppressing' the Hindu community? :p
These are but a very, very few examples of how Hindus are treated in their own land and how the Muslims and Christians are being pampered.
Yes, very few - and very wrong too.
More than enough to reaffirm the VHP as a libelous, clueless and desperate organization. This piece of junk I quote comes straight from their propaganda section.
Propaganda is one thing, but these Vishwa Hindutva terrorists not only attempt to create utter confusion with their incoherent banalities, but actually find audience among their ultra-fundamentalist ilk. Post this same post on a HinduJagruti – and you'll actually find real human beings nodding along in astonished agreement. (Comments such as 'I agree with every line' and 'so true!!' are expected in response to such junk!.)
Any utterance by these maniacs can be ripped apart by a fourth grader.
I've had enough of this Violent Hindutva Parishad. It's time these anti-nationals, along with their extended family (the RSS, Shiv Sena, MNS, Bajrang Dal...) are banned and booked for sedition, terrorism and libel.
God Bless India!
- yaamyn.
Posts
22 comments:
lolz... loved your post.
Well you'll find posts like that everywhere... sometimes they are so ridiculous that you can't even write a fitting reply to it coz half the time you're laughing your ass out :-)
But it was nice to read logical reply from your part.
I'm from Mizoram, and I still laugh when I see such people claim that evil gun totting christian missionaries have converted Hindu nagaland and mizoram into Christianity! lolzzz... dunno what makes them so dumb. People in that area were never Hindus before, and were never under any Indian ruler until the British came. We were tribal headhunters and animist a long time ago, with not much importance given to the animism part sometimes. But try telling that to a VHP cadre and he will say those are all lies. Lies spread by evil Missionaries. People of Mizoram and Nagland were all Hindus before. There are Ram temples all over those States destroyed by the Missionaires. blah blah blah. :-)
lolzzzz especially at "Immersion frenzy is a derogatory term?" :-)
Muslim Youths
Muslim youths are angry, frustrated and extremist because they have been mis-educated and de-educated by the British schooling. Muslim children are confused because they are being educated in a wrong place at a wrong time in state schools with non-Muslim monolingual teachers. They face lots of problems of growing up in two distinctive cultural traditions and value systems, which may come into conflict over issues such as the role of women in the society, and adherence to religious and cultural traditions. The conflicting demands made by home and schools on behaviour, loyalties and obligations can be a source of psychological conflict and tension in Muslim youngsters. There are also the issues of racial prejudice and discrimination to deal with, in education and employment. They have been victim of racism and bullying in all walks of life. According to DCSF, 56% of Pakistanis and 54% of Bangladeshi children has been victims of bullies. The first wave of Muslim migrants were happy to send their children to state schools, thinking their children would get a much better education. Than little by little, the overt and covert discrimination in the system turned them off. There are fifteen areas where Muslim parents find themselves offended by state schools.
The right to education in one’s own comfort zone is a fundamental and inalienable human right that should be available to all people irrespective of their ethnicity or religious background. Schools do not belong to state, they belong to parents. It is the parents’ choice to have faith schools for their children. Bilingual Muslim children need state funded Muslim schools with bilingual Muslim teachers as role models during their developmental periods. There is no place for a non-Muslim teacher or a child in a Muslim school. There are hundreds of state schools where Muslim children are in majority. In my opinion, all such schools may be designated as Muslim community schools. An ICM Poll of British Muslims showed that nearly half wanted their children to attend Muslim schools. There are only 143 Muslim schools. A state funded Muslim school in Birmingham has 220 pupils and more than 1000 applicants chasing just 60.
Majority of anti-Muslim stories are not about terrorism but about Muslim
culture--the hijab, Muslim schools, family life and religiosity. Muslims in the west ought to be recognised as a western community, not as an alien culture.
Iftikhar Ahmad
www.londonschoolofislamics.org.uk
@illusionaire:
These guys are dumb as dumb gets. This is what happens when there's their thinking faculty is overtaken by baseless hatred!
I have a friend from Mizoram.. and he tells me the same thing. But as far as these Hindutva morons are concerned, the whole world was full of Ram-bhakts before Aurangzeb was born.
Thnx for reading!
@iftikhara:
I couldn't disagree with you more.
If anything, religion needs to be kept light years away from a child's schooling and a nation's politics.
Children need to grow up learning about what they have in common, rather than conditioned to treat others differently.
Ghettosizing, dividing, separating.. these are the roots of all the world's problems.
Your ideas are completely unacceptable.
It was a long and good reading. Education is the only way to awaken the sleeping souls in our country so that they may experience all sorts of development.
@IftikharA : Brother, if Muslims are so obsess about their religion, let them allow their kids to go to schools first and allow them to graduate before they enter Madrasas which Christians do. This will enlighten them and be more competitive in all fields. I don't think we should blame British style of education in the country. Those who create havoc are those poor chaps in our societies.
the author of this post seems to be deluding his or her own self. It is this sort of self denial for 50 years that brought India to this low level today.
However, today Hindus are not too ignorant ignorant to buy into these self denial craps.
@anonymous:
Let's compare notes!
I have taken an entire long essay.. painstakingly researched on each individual point. Pointed out the factual errors in the baseless allegations by this organization, and given a point by point rebuttal.
You, on the other hand, haven't even told me WHY I'm 'deluded'!
Every single comment of mine is based on readily available facts and common sense.
You said:
****
Today Hindus are not too ignorant ignorant to buy into these self denial craps
****
These organizations do not represent Hindus - they have hijacked the religion.. just like the Islamists have hijacked Islam from the everyday Muslims.
THey're just violent extremists and that's all they are. Do not insult the Hindus of this country.
P.S. - what 'self denial craps'?? :p
If you have anything concrete to defend these terrorist organizations and their tactics of violence and intimidation with.. please provide them here.
I'll patiently hear you out.
If you can't, then you need to question yourself.
yaamyn,I consider Shahi Imam as much of an enemy of muslims as Pravin Togadia is of Hindus. They are both fanatics harming their respective communities.They don't intend to help their religion or their country in any way.Don't waste your precious time on them.By talking about them we are serving their purpose of getting free publicity at the cost of harming the secular fabric of the country.
Yaamyn,
I have taken an entire long essay.. painstakingly researched on each individual point. Pointed out the factual errors in the baseless allegations by this organization, and given a point by point rebuttal.
The reason why I did not bother to explain on individual points is because, I consider your views as dishonest to start with. You claim it "research", "factual errors" etc., but don't don't see any evidence, but rather assertion of your flawed notion. What can one aspect from a person who already conluded that the said Hindu organizations are "violent extremists" or terrorist? Here you are not doing research, but only advocating your bias and self delusion. To equate a Hindu organization to the Islamic Jihad that is not only terrorizing India but the whole world as same and not different has exposed your ignorance and bias.
I aspect some level of maturity, honesty and analytical thinking if I am to engage in any discussion.
Some question I would like to ask...
1. Are you denying the fact that there is anti-national, violence and terrorism by the Muslims, Christians and Marxist in India that is solely driven by their ideology and religious dogmas?
2. Are you denying that the Muslims, Christians and Marxist indulge in anti-Hindu agenda or activities in the form of Jihad, conversion and propaganda against the Hindus?
See, the above two is now well evident and a lot of exposure has been made already.
It is not only India that is is facing these problem but we see the same issues in many countries also wherever there is Muslims and Christians.
Well your research is very shallow (limited to your perception) and when you remove your bias, and open your mind to reality you will see a totally different picture.
This I can assure you. However I do not blame you as I see ignorance as the root cause of these false notion and conclusion.
yaamyn,
BRILLIANT!!!
anonymous...
Trust me, LARGELY Hindus today don't give a rat's tiny backside about the rubbish being spouted by the vhp. I will line up 10 Hindus on this blog who will laugh at your face for suggesting that they're buying into vhp propaganda.
Shame on you!
anonymous...
Response to your # 1 point:
Every single DIVISIVE speech, hate CD distributed by the bjp before elections, etc. etc. etc. is an example of an attemtp to divide India; and is therefore an Anti-National activity?
Who are you calling anti-national? Apne girebaan mein jhaanko!
The repeated violence in Orissa, by the vhp & the bajrang dal, the very origins of these organizations & their parent, the rss are based in religion!
Who is a religious extremist in your book? Only one community?
And you're calling yaamyn blind to the truth???
I've got my laugh for the day!
Get outta here...
@prerna: I agree. Fanatics are the biggest threat to the world today.. not just India. India's very unity is under threat by these extremists who operate under the guise of 'religion'
@anonymous:
Let me clarify a few things first.
You have been reading too mucb between the lines. This post is only about VHP and its lies to spread animosity as a matter of policy, that I have tackled one by one.
Nowhere have I even mentioned Islamist terrorism, let alone equate it with VHP. (Still, it's ME who's delusional?)
To respond to your questions
1) No. I don't deny it at all. There are violent extremists among the Hindus, Muslims, Communists in this country with an anti-national agenda, solely driven by ideologies and religious dogmas... Some of them are SIMI, CPI(m), Bajrang Dal, VHP, RSS, HuJI, Indian Mujahideen, Ranvir Sena, Shiv Sena, MNS, LeT.. and I condemn all of them unequivocally. Do you?
2) Yes. I deny that 'Muslims, Christians and Marxists' of India have an anti-Hindu agenda. For the simple fact that you have just accused over 200 million Indian citizens of being 'anti-Hindu' for just having a religion other than Hinduism!
However, if you mean the bigots.. there are plenty in every religion. And they all belong under brand name 'Extemists'. Don't insult the faiths.
I also deny the claim that I'm ignorant.. I have backed up every statement of mine with solid evidence. (I can give u the link to the UN charter, for example. And you can find out for urself. And go through the archives and find that BJP resolution I mentioned.. and check the Prison statistics at the Bureau.. and Read Pandit JLN's letters.. and go through the official North Eastern State Laws and statistics.. and the Citizenship Laws.. and the Somnath temple reconstructions timelines.. and talk to at least EIGHT different Amarnath Pilgrims over two weeks.. AND THEN COME AND TELL ME THAT MY POINTS ARE BASED ON IGNORANCE!
You have NOT dared to challenge any single point of mine from the post, but pass sweeping statements on 'MY' ignorance.
As for Bias, YES. I AM biased against terrorism and extremism - unlike you apparently are.
I'm not partial towards any one group of extremists or terrorists, depending on what their names sound like. I hate violence, bigotry, extremism and 'religious' propaganda.. and you'll find me condemning them IMPARTIALLY, and unconditonally. :p
@1conoclast:
Thnx.
The worst part is - The VHP doesn't bother to sell their dangerous ideologies as 'VHP ideas' and 'VHP's demands'.. nor does the RSS or BJP.. instead they somehow package them as 'Hindu demands'! Same goes for Islamists like HuJI..
Who gave these bastards the right to represent out faiths and malign us? Why are we so silent about it?
.. and I couldn't help this one!:
***
What can one aspect from a person who already conluded that the said Hindu organizations are "violent extremists" or terrorist?
***
Ans. That's he/she's very wise and well-informed! :D
Great post..
Bumbed into your blog through a long list of links:-)
Never mind to comments liek those from anonymous..Even when I bring fatcs,with links provided,these guys just rule out them as being biased..uh?Where do they get their news authentically?No questions asked..
A hindu is branded a patriot automatically,while it is not the same with a muslim or a christian..Why?
what these VHP and Dal guys are doing is nothing less than terrorism..But hindus find it difficult to accept..Why?
When talking about extremism,they insist on me lookig into 'real' hindusim,but they find it silly when I ask them the same;to look into Quran and not into fundies..Why?
About Hajj subsidy,Its just a crappy piece of meat shown to us minority donkey minded people.."Subsidy' is nohing more that government's policy to keep Air inidia in profit by gradding and looting the hajj sector,more than a lakh passengers in a month..Once the monopoly of Air india is taken away,people can make hajj at even lesser cost..In fact muslims have been asking since long to abolish 'hajj SUBSIDY"..But they won't ..as they can't play the minority crad..
We should awake and see facts for ourselves and talk for a better india..
We share lot common thoughts..Do visit my small blog:)
Good day
Nimmy
Yaamyn,
I have a strong reason when I termed your views are 'ignorant'. The difference is, I think based from different angle then yours. When I make a conclusion that your views are biased you feel that I am making a sweeping statement but what you have not realized is, your views were sweeping statement based on a narrow angle by neglecting the actual fact.
For now let’s assume that VHP is bad and that they indulge in many wrong deeds which are bad for nation.
1) No. I don't deny it at all. There are violent extremists among the Hindus, Muslims, Communists in this country with an anti-national agenda, solely driven by ideologies and religious dogmas... Some of them are SIMI, CPI(m), Bajrang Dal, VHP, RSS, HuJI, Indian Mujahideen, Ranvir Sena, Shiv Sena, MNS, LeT.. and I condemn all of them unequivocally. Do you?
Appreciate that notion that you acknowledge the extremists agenda but what I noticed is, you have left out Christian groups indulging in conversion menace and anti-national activities but did not fail to group Hindu organizations into the same category which I disagree.
2) Yes. I deny that 'Muslims, Christians and Marxists' of India have an anti-Hindu agenda. For the simple fact that you have just accused over 200 million Indian citizens of being 'anti-Hindu' for just having a religion other than Hinduism!
First of all I did not mean all 'Muslims, Christians and Marxists', but to understand if you deny the anti-national agenda perpetuated by those belong to these communities.
Well now here are my next questions for you...
In broad categories these groups can be categorized as Hindu groups, Muslim groups, Christian groups, and Communists / Marxist groups.
Now can you outline what anti-national activities, hateful agenda and propagated perpetuated by these groups?
A. Muslims
B. Christians
C. Hindus
D. Communists / Marxist
My intention of asking this is to be objective rather then basing on assumptions. I will prefer if you can maintain objectivity in your response.
@anonymous:
I realize you're gently trying to nudge me towards calling 'Muslims, Christians and Marxists' anti-national.
I find it amusing how you still attempt to hold out against condemning what is very obviously violence by these groups that I mentioned.
However I shall indulge you some more.
1) None of the groups I mentioned belong to any religion. They're all extremists of the same mindset.
If you think I 'avoided' mentioning any christian extremist groups on purpose - think again.
The Christians are perhaps one of the most peaceful minority communities in India.
(And this is coming from a Non-Christian.)
If you think their missionaries are 'anti-national', I have to disagree.
They have done some excellent work in providing quality education and services. (Probably one of the better remnants of the British Raj)
If you're still bent on somehow 'proving' that Christians and Muslims of the country (and the extremist organizations 'representing' them) alone are anti national.. then you're missing the Jumbo Jet for the flea.
I would love to be objective and spell out the activities of the non-hindutva extremist organizations - but I see it as a futile exercise.
Instead, I would like to hear you tell me your opinion about extremist organizations like VHP and Bajrang Dal - and your reasons for not openly condemning them. In my opinion they are terrorist organizations. What would make you think otherwise? :-)
Anonymous,
Suffice it to say that I've stopped reading what you're writing. Maybe India's hope lies in ignoring your ilk. I mean the vhp too here.
Yaamyn,
I have some relatives in Pak. One is a nuclear scientist. She is not allowed to visit India, while her husband often travels here on conferences.
That ISI chief point in this light is not only propaganda but also represents the IQ of the vhp: ZERO!
Yaamyn,
Now your motives are exposed. You seems to only see faults at Hindu based groups and selectively avoid the non-Hindus. While you deny the violence and anti-national activities carried out by the Muslims and Christians are religiously motivated, it is funny to see that you are selectively only pointing to Hindu groups avoiding discussion on Muslims or Christians. If fact you are the testimony that this is religiously motivated.
And your denial for Christians missionaries indulging in anti-national activities do not seems to be not a problem since here the target groups are Hindus. How is that almost all Muslim majorities countries says the opposite and have legally banned missionary schools and from them converting Muslims? and how come only in India they are good and not in Muslim countries?
This is the kind of hypocrisy I see in most Muslims. No wonder you are spreading hatred towards VHP. Of cause your delusion and Islamic bias will not allow you to acknowledge this fact!
BTW, don't think all Hindus are fools to believe in this craps and hypocrisy.
Hurray for 'exposing my motives'.
It's still amusing to me that you have not given me ONE comeback line, or an argument to prove anything I said as wrong.
Instead you try to discover 'motives' and pat yourself on the back. I asked you for your views on these groups, and you dare not speak it.
I have already earlier condemned extremists cutting across 'religious' lines. If SIMI and HuJI and LeT are Hindu-based groups in your book, fine with me.
It is not I who's avoiding discussion.. it is you. You have yet to present your views on these Hindutva groups (though I already have an inkling!)
When I cudn't name any Christian extremist groups (can you?) because they ARE NOT involved in bombings and lynchings and distributing Trishuls and swords.. it is a compliment to them.
It's no state secret that the best schools in the country are run by this minority group.
If that makes you uncomfortable, I can't help it. (And how exactly is that an 'Islamic bias'?)
If there's any Islamic bias here, it is in YOU. BEcause YOu seem to be the one looking at the middle eastern countries for Inspiration.
Unfortunately, we dont' need that kind of Inspiration..
AND finally - THIS IS HILARIOUS!!
This is the kind of hypocrisy I see in most Muslims. No wonder you are spreading hatred towards VHP.
Of cause your delusion and Islamic bias will not allow you to acknowledge this fact!
What am I supposed to do? Spread the goodwill and benevolence of the VHP?! Share the love and peace they so idolize?! Hahahaha!
BTW, don't think all Hindus are fools to believe in this craps and hypocrisy.
Definitely not. 'craps and hypocrisy' you wont find on my blog, buddy. Unless it's in the comments section under 'anonymous'. :p
This picture (http://doubtengine.blogspot.com/2008/09/and-visuals.html) has been copied from the following site:
http://mutiny.in/2008/09/01/ban-the-vishwa-hindu-parishad-vhp/
Using this as a backdrop following comments are posted trying to pit religion vs religion.
"They'll blame Ghori and Ghazni. They'll blame Christian missionaries. They'll blame 'pseudosecularism'. They'll blame the 'Italians'. They'll blame ISI. They'll blame Pakistan. They'll blame the liberals."
Most posts in this blog have been either adapted or copied from the http://mutiny.in site and painted in religious fervour (precisely pitting MUSLIMS vs HINDUS). Hence, all INDIAN intelligentsia beware of this MALDIVIAN (Yaamyn) for he is a 'lunatic' with a keyboard trying to spread hatred and abusing your fellow countrymen.
Good words.
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