Friday, November 28, 2008

India's 9/11? Ha. Ha.

Certain (far more) important things kept me away from commenting on Indian politics lately. ;-)

To begin with, the Maldivian democracy movement finally culminated in the peaceful deposing of a 30 year old dictatorship through an electoral process.

We now have a YOUNG(and by 'young', I don't mean 55) and energetic new president.

Note that the country's first democratic elections saw no violence, no riots, nor any attempts to hijack the election.

Instead, the new and old leadership have decided to work together during the transition phase.

It's also important to note that new government is working on improving investments and business friendly policies and privatizations. Of improving students performances in secondary level exams.

They're also talking of future planning - and investing in land in another country, in case Global warming results in the low lying Maldive islands disappearing under the sea.

In short, they are thinking of GOVERNING, rather than merely clinging onto power. No sloganeering, no vindictiveness, no hatred, no populism for mere votes.

I'm proud of the way it turned out. Maybe India can learn a lesson or two from us. It's an honest thought.

But coming back to India. It's horrifying to see the continuing terrorist attack in Mumbai.. The sheer scale of violence and the audacity of the perpetrators in coming out in the open is indeed frightening.

It's a moment I thought the country would come together and stand united in the face of terror.

Instead, I see electoral glee on the faces of the BJP led opposition. Seeing the fortunes dip for the ruling Congress, they're firing missives and 'letters'.. and making announcements of their poll planks.

Some people are trying to label it India's 9/11.. But I don't agree. On 9/11, all the Americans stood united - cutting across ideological lines, party affiliations, race, color or ethnicity - Democrats and Republicans and third parties stood UNITED and STRONG behind President Bush in that hour.

I don't see anything of that sort happening in India. Front page reports are weighing such a brazen terrorist attack in terms of electoral gains and losses.

It got me thinking. Hundreds of horrific deaths, constant explosions, a raging fire and continuing violence by anti-Nationals - and they find time to think about VOTES?

Speaks much for India's 'leaders'.

56 comments:

Kislay said...

You are right when you say America was united in the face of those attacks. But what happened has been labeled India's 9/11 because they brought Mumbai to a stand still ,and there was chaos all around . So I guess the "ha ha" was uncalled for mate .

Yaamyn said...

It was an unfunny 'Ha. Ha.'

A sad one, indeed. Notice the periods?

I was sort of hoping that PERHAPS on this occasion, the reaction of politicians to such a paralyzing tragedy would be more of compassion and statesmanship than greed.

Ravi said...

Great Post! Yes, rejoice MOFO, 'Inshaalla', this is just a glimpse of what is coming to our country, India. Good job wrecking the nation. I guess we deserve it, for being humans and tolerating this menace masquerading as religion. FUCK YOU ALL.

Sach! said...

I agree to you! 'nd yes! This ain't 9/11 for the same reasons...

1conoclast said...

Yaamyn,

Left exactly the same response to a certain bjp spokesperson by the name of krishna aradhi on IHM's blog!

Imagine.. the US got behind a silly leader like Bush (no Democrats screaming for his head), we got behind vajpayee (no calling for his head), but these bjp types are the vermin of the Earth. Bloody maggots. Scum. They're worse than the terrorists. May they rot in hell!

Who's this anonymous coward Ravi...? You have his IP address, don't you?

Kislay said...

@1conoclast
If Krishna Aradhi is the spokesperson for the BJP , then what the hell are you ? And the BJP types are vermin,scum and maggots . Well ,I have never seen you using these words against those who kill in the name of "Allah" and whose actions are fulled by "Islam" ? Why these double standards , O my seemingly very patriotic fellow Indian ?

Krishna Aradhi said...

@ 1conoclast

Shut your trap if you have nothing sensible to say. Just for your information, I am not an extreme right-winger as you would like to believe. My ideology is center-right. And yes, I'd prefer to be the BJP spokesperson any day than a Kaangreesi spokesperson like you.

Yaamyn said...

@ Ravi : Sometimes I fear what you say about the 'menace masquerading as religion' is indeed true. "religion" itself is such a concept.

A plough in the hands of an honest man, a weapon in the hands of a fanatic. Unfortunately we have more fanatics than honest men.

@Sach! : It surely isn't. America came out of their 9/11 stronger.. the tragedy in India only highlighted the huge fractures.

@1conoclast: I DO wonder why Vajpayee didn't quit in shame on the eve of the Parliament attack... not to mention the Akshardham temple outrage.. the Gujarat Genocide.. the Defense Scandals.. Tehelka scam.. coffin scam..
He clearly was no good at this 'moral responsibility' crap.

Considering all the rhetoric flying around from the right wing camp, it would only be fair to think that the job of a Government is to quit on rainy days.

TO my Right Wing friends - Bush could easily have quit on September 11 - Given that he had ignored an intelligence brief which stated Bin Laden's intentions, AND was sitting in a kindergarten class for over 15 whole minutes doing nothing after he heard the news.

Instead, his America's people and leaders stood behind their president and gave him the mandate to act tough on the terrorists.

Which he did. And there's been no terror attack on their soil since.

@Kislay : Hmm. Interesting. Wonder what 1con's got to say in response to you. :p
But far as I know, he doesn't rally behind calls to give 'em terrorists Election Tickets and Party lawyers either.

1con, your response.

@Krishna Aradhi:
Interesting that you identify yourself as center-right.
I belong to left of center school of thought, and we're bound to disagree on some issues.

But then, you have not mentioned any issues here, or your views.

For instance, you have not told me WHY you would prefer a BJP spokesman to a 'kaangreesi' one.

I would hate to be aligned to a party that condones terrorism of a certain flavor and offers terror suspects Election tickets, party backing and other lovely freebies even certain senior, accomplished party members don't get.

And I would hate to be part of a party that milks a national tragedy with one eye on the elections - ignoring the fact that this is an attack on the country - and the full International media glare is ON us.

Just my thoughts. Feel free to offer yours.

1conoclast said...

Kislay...

That's simple. ANTI-bjp! If you haven't been able to see the reasons for yourself by now, Yaamyn's provided plenty of them for you to read through. As I have time & again. In the (futile?) hope to educate my fellow Indians.

There is nothing to say about terrorists who kill in the name of Islam. Whatever there is to be said, real (moderate?) Muslims, the media, the Cong., the bjp & it's followers have already said. And if you go thru my blog, you will find rah-rah's over an anti-terrorism fatwa; you will find condemnation of conservative mullahs; you'll find me proposing solutions to end conservatism in Islam.

The terrorists don't need unmasking. They're unabashedly, shamefacedly terrorist. It's the terrorists who are masquerading as nationalists, that need unmasking. And That is what I am doing.

With additional information at your disposal, I hope you understand better now.

KA,

I notice that you chose to run away from IHM's forum with your tail between your legs. You had no answers to my questions. Why the overtly aggressive rant here? Baring your extremist fangs, huh? ;-)

I speak for tolerance, moderation & progress. As opposed to intolerance, belligerence & regressiveness. I can't help it if one party stands for the former & the other for the latter. Get them to fix their heads, I'll speak for them too. I didn't fail to laud Sudheendra Kulkarni when he took the right stand. But if you screw up my country, I will expose you. On blogs, in forums, in speech, in person, on film, in ads, on every single front. I will open up the battle against you on so many fronts that you will not be able to handle the exposures that hit you! If you haven't noticed, the exposures have already begun. The end is nigh. The jansangh died. And so will the bjp! The right-wing is historically doomed to fail.

Krishna Aradhi said...

@ Yaamyn

I cannot go into the details now as I am currently giving my engineering exams. Yes, I follow the right of center school of thought as of now. Left of center doesn't particularly attract me. That said, I am still very young and therefore am interested in researching other ideologies like liberalism. It will be nice to engage in healthy debates with you. I hope, though, that you are not half as vindictive as 1conoclast is.

I did not say that I'd like to be the BJP spokesperson. I said that given a choice between the BJP and the Congress, I'd choose the BJP.

I would like to go through all your posts once my exams are over. I hope to learn something new.

@ 1conoclast

I would have loved to reply to your arguments, but for reasons already stated above, I couldn't. I have engineering exams to pass. Now you can construe that as a sign of surrender from my side, but I couldn't care less. Satisfy yourself. And no, I don't guarantee that I will reply to them once my exams are over, because I have some new blogs in the pipeline. I just don't have the time. Think I have lost? Go ahead, satisfy yourself.

Kislay said...

@1conoclast
There is nothing wrong with being anti BJP . I am not a big fan of them , but yes, right now, I'll choose them over Congress or Communists . But you are fanatically against them . You even said that RSS was linked to the Sikh riots . And why is that ? Just because we ( those who do not hate BJP as much as you do ) , do not see what you see , doesn't mean that we are wrong . This is not a black-and-white world, it is one big Grey zone . This conversation reminds me of the on-going battles between Atheists and Theists on Orkut , where each is trying to convince the other of why and how they are wrong . I am not a fan of Congress , I do not like them , but yet , I never called them vermin,maggot or scum bags . In your world , it seems that everything that is wrong , has gone wrong , and will go wrong with this nation is the direct or indirect result of BJP/RSS/VHP . That is all I have to say . Please don't give me a long lecture on why the BJP is the Devil's Own Party of Planet Earth .

1conoclast said...

KA,

I'm not given to gloating simply because my idea is not to "win" an argument. It is to show people light. So I'm happy to engage you in debate until you see the light, or until I am tired of trying (which you can interpret as losing, if you are so inclined).

I'll wait for your exams to get over. I hope you do well. We need engineers, good ones, not right-wing ones. So I hop you pass the intelligent, peace-loving, socially responsible exam as well.

Kislay,

I didn't say everything that is wrong is result of the sangh. But in the issues we have been discussing of late, the fault can be traced back to them. If you ever want to discuss events & proof, just let me know. I'll be happy to point that out.

I'll spare you the long lecture for now. You've already heard them. Now all that's left is for you to see the light.

Yaamyn said...

@KA :
I'll definitely love to engage with anyone with the remotest love for peace and humanity - and inclusive progress.

All the best for your exams. Mine are going as well.. :p But I do sneak in here when time allows.

@kislay: I do wonder why you would prefer BJP over Communists or Congress right now. I have a feeling it has something to do with the terror attacks?

I don't really approve of the way the Congress has conducted itself - esp. in the 'discipline' field. They do not come across as a very cohesive, active unit - even though they have such brilliant people as Chidambaram and Dr. Manmohan Singh in the team.

The Congress is boring, yes. They do not throw soundbytes, stoke fires, give incendiary, inflammatory speeches, or offer Election tickets to terror suspects or adorn them with flowers.

Boring. But I'd much prefer them any day over BJP. I'd rather see India being governed than 'entertained'.

It's simple for me.

I just might have agreed with you if the 6 year period of BJP rule had seen any better track record on law and order.

I find as many (more?) terror attacks back then.. I haven't forgotten the Parliament attack which was no less 'brazen' for terrorists.
The temple attacks were equally condemnable too.
The Godhra attack happened under Modi's watch, and there's no justification in this world for Genocide (as you also agree)

Oh. And POTA was a pathetic joke.

No. I wouldn't trust BJP with law and order or anything of that sort.

For all their posturing and 'tough on terror' talk, they have proved utterly useless - hell, they can't even CONDEMN certain terror attacks. (remember 'Hindus can't be terrorists?')

I've yet to hear Sonia Gandhi say "Muslims can't be terrorists, they're Nationalists!'

Someone like Dr. Manmohan Singh cannot be pictured offering Mohd Afzal a congress ticket to fight elections, or showering flowers on the Mumbai terrorists as they're taken to court.

NO, I disagree. The BJP is no substitute, nor a replacement for the Congress - find someone else.

Congress me gray, but the BJP is lampblack.

The only thing they can successfully do is complete their agenda of completely alienating the 150 million strong Muslim minority in the country. And crack down on Christian 'missionary terror'.

And condone the rapists.

BJP and Law and Order? What a joke!
I don't mind being fanatically against all fanatics. And the BJP and Sangh Parivar just happens to be an organization full of them.

1conoclast : I wonder if this is what is called a knee-jerk reaction?

A terrorist attack... and suddenly everyone's rooting for the BJP? Oh no! I remember what it's called!

Short Public memory

And who's going to see India through a financial crisis?

Rajnath Singh?

Lmao.

1conoclast said...

:-D

Yaamyn... NOW I'm LMAO!!!

My eyes are open. And I can see no responses from the 2K's. Looks like this Maldivian-Indian pairing is a little tough for them to handle. Careful. They'll try to divide us now.

Krishna Aradhi said...

@ 1conoclast

I am ignoring that jibe. No time to reply.

@ Yaamyn

Forgive the bad English that follows. I had to type it all in a hurry.

When it comes to riots and killings, the Congress wins hands down. Remember the anti-Sikh riots? Even Congress can be accused of burning and raping. 3500 Sikhs officially perished in those attacks. No one goes after the Congress for that. I wonder why.

Sure, church-burning and nun-raping is condemnable. BJP is committing a mistake by not condemning it. But then you should also look at the fact that forced conversions are a reality in those areas. The UPA Government has cracked down on foreign funding of these organisations recently. This happened only after the tragic riots in Orissa and Karnataka. Apparently, the Christian organisations get a few thousand crores of rupees in foreign funding every year. Such attempts at changing the demography of a region are bound to incite a reaction. Need proof that conversions are a reality? Check this out: http://www.tehelka.com/story_main.asp?filename=ts013004shashi.asp&id=1

The Golden Quadrilateral Project. The UPA Government killed it.

Raj Thackeray. The only reason he is freely roaming on the streets of Mumbai today is because the Congress Govt in the state refused to arrest him. He has infused a lot of poison in Maharashtra. So-called outsiders are really being badly treated very badly here. As I live in Pune, I know.

POTA was a pathetic joke. I partially agree. But the UPA Govt is now moving to insert certain provisions in something called the National Security Act. Provisions similar to POTA may well be included in it. A law similar to POTA called MCOCA also exists in Maharashtra. Why hasn't the state Congress Govt moved to repeal it too. Double standards?

We constantly praise the USA for not suffering any major terror attack since 9/11. They have the Patriot Act, which, if I am not mistaken, is very much like the POTA. What if the Patriot Act is one of the reasons that they have managed to remain terror-free? Don't say that mere laws won't change things. If that was the case, the Patriot Act would have been repealed now, because many US citizens are against it.

Economics. Sonia Gandhi recently said that Indira Gandhi's contribution in nationalisation of banks saved India. A LOL statement if there ever was one. With such morons in power, I won't trust the UPA Govt on economics. The A-team of economists has indulged in fiscal profligacy of the worst kind. The Rs. 70,000 farm loan waiver is an example. It is due to this so-called A-team that India will not be meeting its fiscal deficit targets for this year.

Minority appeasement. Manmohan Singh once said that the minorities have the first right to the nation's resources. Disgusting. What does he mean by that?

Illegal Bangladeshi migrants. In spite of it being proved that Bangladesh-based terrorist organisations have a hand in terrorist attacks across India, this Govt has not moved against illegal immigration. There are so many migrants in Assam now, that its demography is being changed. This is criminal negligence on the part of the UPA Govt, isn't it? These migrants can seriously compromise national security.

The nuke deal is another thing I have against the Congress. The deal is a sell-out in return for far too little. I don't know your position on this issue.

Fine, the BJP is too aggressive, but the Congress is too meek and lenient.

I have to stop now. We can keep sparring over this BJP vs Congress issue forever, but the fact is that they probably are more alike than different. You choose the Congress, I may not do the same. It's just a matter of opinion.

Krishna Aradhi said...

Just thought you should know this. As far as the Lok Sabha elections are concerned, my vote will go neither to the BJP nor to the Congress. I will be voting for Arun Bhatia who is contesting from Pune.

You can learn more about him here: http://www.arunbhatiaelect.org/

Sure, his is not a big political party yet. But 15-20 years down the line, I hope it will become a force to reckon with. I am looking at the future.

1conoclast said...

KA,

It's not time you're short on. As is obvious with your essay-esque response to Yaamyn. I'll let his respond, but I will too. It's too tempting. I'm addicted to peeling the layers away, to digging deeper as UB40 put it.

Who says no one goes after the Cong. for 1984? Everyone does. Most Sikhs still hate the Congress.
Right-wing fans bring it up all the time, mind you, only in defence of their own misadventures.
You are bringing it up now.
Tehelka has brought it up in their "Stranded Wheels of Justice".
So why are you wondering why no one brings it up? Misinformed? Or malintentioned?
The Cong. has apologised for 1984. It takes a very very big heart to admit error in front of an entire nation, to jeopardize your future by admission of culpability, doesn't it? But they did it.
Has the bjp or the rss ever admitted guilt, let alone apologize???

Read more opinions here.

Only a very third rate person would try & shift the focus away from the bjp's & the sangh's misdemeanours in Orissa & Karnataka (& elsewhere of course!) to conversions!!! Only the insecure in their own religion need to fear conversions. And only the insecure & violent go about killing missionaries. And only absolute filth defends them!

raj thakre: Wasn't he a political ally of the bjp in his shiv sena days??? LOL! Choose what you bring up carefully!
PS: I live in Pune too. I know too. So careful of what you claim. Pune was largely unaffected by the mns stir.

POTA: So if it was a pathetic joke, why aren't you just happy that they got rid of it & did one good thing, instead of continuing to find fault?
By the way, the HC upheld the MCOCA, so apparently the Cong. think tank is doing a good job.

And just because the US indulges in all kinds of rights violations/territorial integrity violations, does that mean we should too??

Economics: :-) My favourite!!!
Typically juvenile of you to pick on Sonia's comment. Need I point out that the World at large recognizes Dr. Manmohan Singh as the architect of India's current booming economic status? Or are you going to display absolute partisanism & dispute even that??? That was in his first innings as Fin Min.
As PM, under him India's sensex has surged to such heights, growth has steadily been above the 6-8% range, jobs & salaries, exports, IT, ITES, retail & infrastructure have all boomed.
The recent inflation plank that the opposition planned to use too has been snatched away from their watering mouths. Inflation is down like he said it'd be.
He's predicted that the slowdown will go away in 6-9 months. And going by his past record it will.
And he will do a good job on tackling terror as well. He's already exposed the bjp's stand on terror. With him at the helm, the bjp will be left clutching at straws!

Sure he means that. The underpriviliged have greater right to our resources. If I have 1 roti with me, will I give it to a hungry man or to one who gets to eat 3 meals everyday??????? Stop being so selfish.

Illegal Bangladeshi immigrants: What did the bjp do when they were in power about it?
There are quite a few in Bombay as well. Did the bjp-sena combine do anything when they were in power? Nothing? Ah... expected. All show, no go.
India has always let immigrants come in & take shelter. The Tibetans came, the Nepalis keep coming, goodness knows who else comes in.
I hear no noise from our unworthy opposition on them. They're not a threat to national security? Can I hazard a guess as to why? hindutva maybe?
Are you aware of Canada's or Australia's policy on illegal immigrants? Look it up, you're still a student, you have the time.

Calling the nuke deal a sell-out also gives away your political leanings apart from your half-baked information.
So better ties with the US are a problem huh?
And we have people in the current opposition whose judgement is superior to Dr. Singh's judgement??? Name one. Or name one expert of nuclear or foreign policy among them.

So the bjp was not soft on bal thakre when his goons dug up the Kotla pitch?
And not soft on modi when he allowed genocide to happen in gujarat (assuming he wasn't the mastermind)?
And not soft on advani for calling jinnah a great man?
And not soft on pragya & purohit defenders?
And not zero on participative solutioning in the Bombay aftermath?
They're soft in the head!

And the Congress notches up economic achievement after nuclear achievement, catches perpetrators of the Delhi & Malegaon terror attacks, but because they don't indulge in chest-thumping, controversial, partisan rhetoric, they're meek?
By your logic, even Gandhiji must've been meek!
And Indira Gandhi strong, I presume? :-)

As for Arun Bhatia, I've seen his posters towards Karve Rd., Swargate etc. Seems like a good guy. Much better than a shiv khera!

1conoclast said...

PS:
1. Not that Sonia was wrong. All of India today acknowledges (as does Arun Bhatia!) that all out capitalism would've seen us in a much bigger crisis than we're seeing now. Thankfully our capitalism is tinged with socialism. :-)
2. You still haven't replied to my role of the rss in the 1984 riots query...

Yaamyn said...

I just had a weird thought..

What would be the BJP reaction if the Congress unleashed a 500 crore publicity blitzkrieg celebrating Dr. Manmohan Singh's governments numerous achievements?

India Gleaming? India Booming? India Rising? India Tantalizing? What should it be this time..?

@KA and 1con : thank you for your detailed arguments, t'was a good effort. I shall get back soon... I'm on exam schedule!(Who keeps an exam on SUNDAY?!!)

Krishna Aradhi said...

@ iconoclast

Thanks for pointing out that the Congress did apologise for the anti-Sikh ritos. But even that was in 1998, about 14 years after the carnage. So, I'll give the BJP more time to apologise for the Godhra carnage, if Modi is indeed guilty.

I saw a post a few days ago. It is related to the Gujarat riots. I'd like to know your views on it: http://islamicterrorism.wordpress.com/2007/11/08/islamic-terrorism-godhra-and-tehelka-sting-gujarat-ka-sach/

The post says that Modi actually took steps to contain the riots immediately after they started. Many Hindus and Muslims were killed in police firing, which brings up the possibility that it was not a "genocide" or a "pogrom" at all. What if they were just riots, in which both sides were equally responsible? Also remember, the provocation did not come from the Hindus.

Yes, Raj Thackeray was a BJP ally once. But political formations change. He is now the MNS chief and the only party he can ally with now is the Congress. Didn't you see how he was farcical arrested so many times? I won't be surprised if he slowly warms up to the Congress now. If I am right, Maharashtra elections are just about a year away.

Didn't his antics affect Pune? I'm sure they did. I used to see reports in The Indian Express on how construction projects in the city had almost come to a standstill because the migrants had fled, fearing retribution. Even the construction for the CYG Games was affected.

About economic reforms. You guessed rightly, I don't believe Manmohan Singh can be hailed as the only one who ushered in economic reforms. It was P.V. Narasimh Rao who did that. Yes, Manmohan Singh is a good economist, I give you that. We have many good economists. But it takes great political will to implement what the economists suggest. And when you are implementing such reforms after four decades of stifling socialism, even more so. Let's give PVN Rao his due.

Bank Nationalisation. I am increasingly being influenced by liberalism nowadays, so I must differ with you here. More arguments here: http://www.indianexpress.com/news/the-second-mrs-g/388899/

On nuclear deal. I never said closer ties with the US are a problem. Neither does the BJP say so. This has nothing to do with political leanings. But are we so desperate to get close to them that we sign away our right to test for that? Manmohan Singh had repeatedly promised in Parliament that he would never let that happen. In the end, he did let that happen. Yes, there is at least one person in the BJP who is as good as Manmohan Singh. He is Arun Shourie. He has written many columns in The Indian Express criticising the nuke deal. The Indian Express website has slowed down to a crawl now, so I cannot not give you the link. You can check it out later.

One more expert who comes to mind is Brahma Chellaney. He too has written extensively on the nuke deal. His blog is here: http://chellaney.spaces.live.com/

One more thing. Manmohan Singh, after he was selected as the Prime Mminister, himself had stated (in Parliament, I guess) that he had inherited an economy in the pink of its health. So, I guess that Yashwant Sinha too was a good finance minister after all. Of course, Manmohan Singh (and P. Chidambaram) squandered it all away with their fiscal profligacy in the past four years. The scale of their "welfare schemes" is mind-boggling. It seems four decades of socialism has taught us nothing.

Inflation is down now because world oil prices have tumbled. Inflation did not come down because of what the Govt did. In fact, the steps they took to curb inflation brought down our growth. This is exactly why the domestic slowdown started before the global meltdown did. Wasteful government expenditure is one reason why our fiscal deficit targets won't be met this year. I've already said that.

This should be interesting: http://www.livemint.com/2008/11/20221559/Prepare-for-a-hard-landing.html

I disagree with your contention that the minorities deserve a larger share of the resources pie. This has always been the case since we got Independence. Are the Muslims and other minorities better off now? Apparently not. "Welfare schemes" never work. All you have to do is to give the poor people opportunity to improve themselves. And that's exactly what the Golden Quadrilateral project and other road projects initiated by the NDA was achieving: connecting India and giving the poor people the means to improve themselves. This UPA Govt killed all these projects. More than the BJP, the Congress is guilty of treating the minorities and the poor badly, simply because it has been in power for most of the time.

Illegal immigration. Do the Australians face a huge influx of illegal Bangladeshi migrants like we do? Their immigration policies are irrelevant in Indian conditions. Yes, the BJP did nothing to weed them out when they were in power. While I am not defending them for this, it was probably not so serious then, it is now. Just because we didn't act in the past, doesn't mean we shouldn't act now.

You say, You still haven't replied to my role of the RSS in the 1984 riots query.

I didn't see the query. Can you repeat it? Were they too involved in the riots?

Arun Bhatia. Will you vote for him? He is really good. If you are thinking of doing so, please tell everyone you know to do the same. He is the change we need :D

Krishna Aradhi said...

Oops, you are not iconoclast, you are 1conoclast. Forgive that mistake I made my previous comment. LOL!

1conoclast said...

Krishna (I hate calling you that but anyway...) :-)

I'll reply to your post the moment I'm allowed on the comp for some time. It's a weekend & my comp. hours are closely monitored on weekends.

I can say this though... Your last essay tells me that my entire effort is going to be wasted. It's clear that I am talking not to someone who is willing to see sense, but to someone who has preconceived notions about who is good & who is not. Imagine comparing Dr. Manmohan Singh with unke paanv ki jooti arun chori!!!!!! I'll leave you with that thought. If you want to research it, go & type in "shourie" in the search box on my blog & go through the links that tear the mask off his face!
I'll come back & explain in detail later today/tomorrow.

Yaamyn said...

@ Krishna Aradhi :

Sorry for the delay in reply. Anyhow here it goes.
Regarding Riots and Pogroms

You say that when it comes to riots, the Congress "wins hands down". I disagree.

The Sikh pogrom DID HAPPEN - and I will NOT DEFEND the criminals.
And I refuse to defend the Congress on that count.

But I sure can give a comparative analysis.

1) First things first. Though a bit late in coming, the Congress party HAS apologized and taken the blame for incident. Sonia Gandhi apologized. So has senior Congress leader and Prime Minister of India, Dr. Manmohan Singh.

A public apology is a very rare thing in public life.

Now, Compare that with Narendra Modi.

He walked off a show with Karan Thapar - and refused to utter ONE word of remorse. Not even admission of guilt, just a word of remorse/regret was all that was asked of him. He absolutely refused.

And also compare that with LK Advani - aspiring PM and pathetic joke.
It took him a decade and half to mumble something along the lines of 'Saddest day of my life', in connection to the Babri Masjid demolition - and the horrific scale of violence in its aftermath.

Forget the fact that he has yet to feel sorry about the bloody 'Rath Yatra' that took a comparable amount of lives at each pitstop.

Yet to feel sorry about his inflammatory speeches during that adventure. ANd YET TO FEEL sorry for leading the fundamentalist mobs that ultimately ripped apart India's communal harmony once and for all.

And yes, he's also yet to feel sorry about the Gujarat Pogrom. (If Tehelka's word is good enough to prove the Congress guilty, it should be good enough to prove Modi guilty too. Besides, it's all on video!)

I still find it hilarious how AB Vajpayee or Modi didn't find it necessary to quit or resign over the complete breakdown of the Law enforcement under their watch - not to mention the thousands butchered in broad daylight, sometimes with Police participation.

(The dead includes Members of parliament.. anyone remember Ehsaan Jaffery?)

But we all saw the BJP's - and funnily enough, Modi's - reactions recently after Mumbai terror attacks. Calling for 'resignations' - of the entire UPA government, mind you.

Have they no shame?

HKL Bhagat, Sajjan Kumar, Jagdish Tytler are the more high profile names behind the Sikh pogrom.
The Congress might secretly be proud of them. But to their credit, I've never seen any of those animals being projected as 'a future PM candidate'.

Nor do I see any Congress leader today publicly and proudly making anti-Sikh comments.

Nor do I see the Congress attempt to rally people behind an anti-Sikh poll plank. (they COULD have done that you know?)

Instead, the Congress govt. effectively crushed the Punjab terrorism movement AND also managed to integrate a breakaway Punjab, and it's population back into the National mainstream.

Today no man will look at a Sikh on the street and think "SIkh! Terrorist! Anti National!"

They DO NOT feel like foreigners in India. I can also state with some authority that they DO NOT feel alienated or Un-Indian, but are quite secure within the country.

In the early 90's, the then PM Narasimha Rao got a Sikh as his FM, to usher in economic reforms. That man today is India's Prime Minister, leading a Congress government.

Though there must no doubt be victims of the Delhi riots still looking for justice, I can state that NO person can today label the Congress party as an Anti-Sikh or racist organization. It does not indulge in anti-Sikhism as a matter of policy.

I can hardly say that about Sangh Parivar.

The Parivar is PROUDLY anti-Muslim, and will continue to be so - just that they hide like cowards under the cloak of 'nationalism'.

So NO, the Congress DOES NOT win hands down on that count.

Maybe 2 and a half decades ago, but NOT NOW.

Yaamyn said...

Regarding the Christian Conversions

That may well be true, for all I know.

But that doesn't take away an iota of a smidgen of the contempt I have for the Bajrang Dal and VHP whose militants have raped, burnt, looted and chased away thousands of Indian citizens from their homes.

I'm always surprised at the 'justification' offered by the Sangh Parivar for their terrorist ideologies.

If there was a grievance, which no doubt they always have - Doesn't this country have a LAW AND ORDER MECHANISM? AND COURTS OF JUSTICE?

And a LEGAL RECOURSE alleged injustice? If the Parivar can mobilize its militants across Orissa, Karnataka and Kerala - how difficult would it have been to file a PIL?

How about an awareness campaign? A petition? A signature campaign? A satyagraha?

No.

They choose to rape and murder. So much for 'nationalism'.

As for the funds flowing into Christian organizations for conversions, that may well be true. (And you DID say that the UPA has cracked down on them)

My complaint is this - why isn't the UPA cracking down on the VHP and RSS? They TOO receive massive foreign funds (just google it!)

They too indulge in mass - and forcible - conversions. They chase away people from their houses and into thick forests - and don't let them come back until they are tonsured and 'officially' welcomed back into the 'Hindu fold'.

They make traditional meat-eating tribes suffer, and 'return' to Hinduism (the Sangh version).

They make Animists and tribals in the North East 'revert' to Hinduism - just because they chose to become Christians.

How's that for forcible conversion?

Or should I just cut out the 'forcible' and term it a benign 'ghar waapasi'?

Does it change everything?

Yaamyn said...

Regarding the Golden Quadrilateral project

You said that the UPA government has 'killed it'.

I don't know the details of the project. But I'm aware that it is being carried by the NHAI.

The NHAI website says that the project is 98.48% complete, with further plans of expansion of the scope of the project.

http://www.nhai.org/gqmain_english.htm

SO I don't know what you mean. The UPA government killed the last 1.52% and totally ambushed it?

Early this year, the Congress government announced that it was going to EXPAND the project by 6000 kilometers, and widen existing roads.

But then I could have misheard. Can't I?

Yaamyn said...

Regarding Raj Thakeray

This one made me smile, KA.

The Congress might have played a game of letting Raj Thakeray get away with weakening the Shiv Sena.

But does that take away from the fact that Raj Thakeray is a clone of Bal Thakeray. And both of their ideologies are PERFECTLY IN SYNC with the Hindutva means and methodology?

You also forget that it was ALSO the Congress government who arrested the bloke and piled tonnes of cases on him that kept him busy for a while.

That would have been unimaginable if it were a pro-Hindutva party at the center or state government.

I'm in Bangalore.. and am a first hand witness of how it works. During the 'revenge attacks' on Christians after that VHP leader was killed in far away Orissa, some hoodlums attacked the local church in my area.

The Bajrang Dal claimed responsibility for that AND a string of other co-ordinated, well planned almost synchronized attacks in several parts of this state.

What does the BJP Chief Minister Yeddyrappa do to take control of the situation?

Of course! He egged them on, by justifying it and blamed the Christians for the violence they were facing.

Apparently, if you indulge in conversions, you have the right to get murdered and attacked.

Yaamyn said...

Regarding the USA

I have no love for either POTA or the Patriot Act. I mentioned George Bush and 9/11 as an example of remarkable unity during the time of Crisis that a Nation SHOULD show.

It was THIS unity that gave Bush the mandate to do what he had to do.

I personally believe the geographical isolation of the American nation and it's regional stability has a lot to do with the fact that it has not suffered any attacks after 9/11.

The Patriot Act doesn't get all the credit.

Guantanamo bay and secret Prisons in Europe and water-boarding aren't the most ethical means of combating terror, and the new President-elect Obama vows to close down.

It's not surprising that the Patriot Act was put in place by a conservative, fear mongering - not to mention War-Mongering - hawks of the disastrous 8 year old George W Bush regime.

There might NOT have been any terror attacks on the US soil since.. but can you change the fact that America is facing greater danger than ever thanks to its policies?

America's aggressive stand has definitely made it more enemies. Today even the Pakistanis - their long time allies - are spewing venom on ANYTHING American.
Europe, Arabia, South Asia and the East.. the Bush foreign policy's disastrous effects are out there for all to see.

So I wouldn't call the Patriot Act or Gitmo a 'success' - for all the new security threats and anger that it has created for America.

Sometimes it takes a wider view to get a full picture.

Obama promised to bring change, multi lateralism and ENGAGEMENT with his government. Look how the perception changed!

Now everyone loves US! And it could be a bit more secure as a result too.

My point is - thuggery, intimidation, majoritaranism and chauvinism has no place - in either foreign policy or party politics.

It's counter productive.

What might be used as an effort to curb terrorism is gleefully used by terrorists to recruit even more of their kind.

Has the Gujarat Pogrom, the Ayodhya adventure and the POTA created large sections of disaffected Muslim Youth? Yes.

Has the stories of innocent Muslims rounded up by police and tortured recently in Hyderabad angered Muslims? Yes.

DOes it make them feel insecure and lose faith in Justice? Yes.

Does it help with India's security? NO!

NO wonder that terrorists are finally finding recruits from India's mainlands.

I've always believed Terrorism is like fish in an ocean. You cannot shoot them all, cuz they'll continue to thrive and come back.

You need to drown out that ocean of real or perceived injustice in which they breed.

Yaamyn said...

On economics

Did you just call the Congress Economic team 'morons'?

I'm no economist myself, but regarding Sonia Gandhi's statement, I have this to say.
Ever since the global economic crisis struck, more and more people are buying the idea that unbridled capitalism is to blame. Or that Socialism and state intervention and more regulation is the need.

Now, I DO NOT stand either FOR or AGAINST that statement, as I'm not qualified to take a stand here. I know more about sea otters than economics.

But one thing I CAN say about economics is that YOU cannot accuse Dr. Manmohan Singh of NOT knowing it.
India is lucky to have as it's Prime Minister, the most brilliant mind in the financial field.

Back in the days when India was an impoverished, hungry nation in serious debt and need of direction, it took this man's mind - and the then Congress govt's Prime Minister PV Narasimha Rao's blessings - to usher in an era of landmark economic and financial reforms.

Remember the times you had to wait two years to get your telephone?

Just a decade later, India stands tall among the global economic giants - and is considered a future superpower.

Yes. this man KNOWS his economics. Also in his team are Chidambaram, Montek Singh Ahluwalia.. whose credentials are not questioned, because there just aren't any people who can point a finger at them.

I think they're doing an excellent job in times of the Financial crisis.

India's doing marvelously considering the huge recession and shrinking economies around the world.

The Rs. 70,000cr farm loan waiver that you mentioned was quite a great plan when it was announced, if I remember.

There were hardly any critics - even the BJP barely gave a whimper of protest - for not only did Dr.Manmohan Singh's government announce a mind boggling large waiver.. they also found MEANS to fund it.

The fiscal climate changed later, perhaps.. but that doesn't mean the deal was bad.

And India's economy continues to grow skywards.

India's economy is in good hands. For now.

But I would love to know any alternatives to the UPA's financial team in the time of a global Crisis.

You know any?

AB Vajpayee and Yashwant Singh deserve credit for carrying on with the Congress's economic policies and taking forward Dr. Manmohan Singh's liberalization policies.

India can thank them a lot for it.

Yaamyn said...

On Bangladeshi Immigrants

This is a fair point, KA.

No doubt India can't risk large scale immigration by any country.

And I do believe the politics has a hand here. More people mean more votes, after all. That's dark side of democracy.

But then, I've also come across cases where LEGITIMATE Indians - Bengalis - are facing threat from radicals who accuse them of being Bangladeshis.

It's hard to tell apart one from the other, I guess. But it really boggles my mind trying to think of a solution to it.

How does one stop immigration across such a large and porous border?

:-/

I'm still thinking.

Yaamyn said...

ON the Nuclear Deal

This one's easy. India wanted a deal, Pakistan wanted a deal.

India got one. Pakistan didn't.

India celebrated, Pakistan protested.

India won, Pakistan lost.

So if THEY - India's biggest rival - opposed it so vehemently, and lobbied so hard trying to prevent it, then I guess it probably means something.

But by the logic of those in India opposing the deal, Pakistan should be celebrating this deal. FOr now they technically CAN test, while India CANNOT.

But that doesn't make sense to me, because India wouldn't logically want to test nuclear weapons and invite sanctions again anyways.

Nor would Pakistan because they can't really afford to.

India has since made deals with France and Russia for supplies.. and is looking forwards to sign EVEN MORE deals that very few other countries can dream of.

So I guess it worked in India's favour after all?

Yaamyn said...

@ Krishna Aradhi:

AND FINALLY!

BJP is NOT 'TOO AGGRESSIVE'.

It's only too aggressive on the wrong people - and for the wrong reasons.

If it were aggressive, it would have acted decisively against Modi when it had a chance.

If it were aggressive, it would have clamped down on the Bajrang Dal in Karnataka the moment they claimed responsibility.

If it were aggressive, it would have CONDEMNED terror for what it is.. and not whimpered like a poodle.


NO, the BJP isn't aggressive in all these cases. I barely heard them purr when it HAD TO assert itself.

It's only aggressive when there's a TV camera around, and a National tragedy to milk for all its worth.

Thats when the Modis of the world come out on TV.
He hides when it comes to facing difficult questions - like he did on Karan Thapar's show.

I think I've responded to all your points.

You're right, we can GO ON forever sparring Congress vs. BJP.

But you can take it that my word might have a LITTLE more weight, as I don't have any say in Indian politics.

I'm not an Indian citizen - and I have no say in choosing India's leaders. I don't get a vote, campaign in or stand for any election.

But I CAN give my opinion of what I see happening here. And that's what I do! :p

1conoclast said...

Krishna,

Yaamyn's already begun to tear your arguments to absolute shreds. I will of course let him as he's doing a far more detailed, elaborate job of it than I was. My inputs are here anyway. You can choose to reply to his or mine or both of our arguments.

1. Not only is your arguing very infantile, your approach to Justice is very disgusting. Giving modi & the bjp more time to apologize??? Just because there was a delay of justice on one hand, should there necessarily be another travesty of justice on the other.
2. You still haven't commented on the rss link to 1984. Please remember the riots have been branded as a Congress fault, but it was actually an attack on a religious minority by the religious majority. And who claims to represent the religious majority...?

3. PLEASE don't submit stupid blog links whose stand is very clearly partisan! Can you not find more erudite, more established views than THIS???
I'd rather believe a Tehelka whose job it is to investigate than an openly biased blog whose job it is to defend one & defame the other!

4. You're talking about the economic impact of the mns? I was talking about the rioting. There was none in Pune.

5. While I've expressed my utter derision for your odious comparision, I'll say a few lines here so that you (hopefully) get the point:
- Who is Dr. Manmohan Singh? Prime Minister of India, eminent scholar & teacher, expert in his field, ex-RBI Governer, universally acknowledged the World over as the architect of India's reforms. Refer to the Economist please. And othr international journals. And by leading journalistic lights of India like Mr. Karanjia. Among others. Like I said, UNIVERSALLY!!!
- Who is arun shourie? PM? No! PM candidate? No? Expert in any field? Economics? Law? Was he RBI Governer? Chief Justice? Solicitor General?
Is he universally acknowledged as anything even in India, forget the World??? He's derided as a biased armchair historian, derided for his consistent right-wing stance & Muslim bashing, derided for taking potshots at Ambedkar & veiled references to Gandhiji! He was an established journo, but nowhere near the best in his field. And he's not free from bias, so his credentials there are gone too! Read up on what Ramchandra Guha has to say about him! Go to my blog for all the links! Writing a few books doesn't make you an undisputed authority! Specially when you're backed by right-wing funding! Even advani has published a book!!!
None of them will EVER sell as many copies as either Gandhiji's or Nehru's books!!!
He's no expert on the nuclear deal.
FOR GOD'S SAKE, STOP PRESENTING ONE SIDE OF THE STORY ONLY!!! There was a clutch of top nuclear experts who were instrumental in the the deal going through (among them Anil Kakodkar, who the enginneer will bow to you as he heads the IIT Board apart from heading DAE, positions that shourie has never held!!!). These are nuclear experts who were FOR the Deal! So throwing one dissenting voice won't help! :-)

PVN Rao indeed needs to get credit. Not for implementing the reforms, because that is a responsibility he had entrusted Dr. Manmohan Singh with. Rao needs to get credit for giving the right job to the right person!
Just as Karanjia give immense credit to Sonia for making Dr. Singh the Prime Minister!
And just in case you don't remember, Rao was implementing the reforms that Rajiv Gandhi had planned for India.
Anyway, I'm glad you give credit to the Congress for setting us on the Liberalization path that you're so fond of these days! :-D

Also, for God's sake, STOP LYING!!! Yeshwant Sinha was the one who had it easy, considering that Rao & the Singhs (not to forget Montek) has done all the good work!
Have you forgotten that the bjp was yelling swadeshi when Dr. Singh was busy with his reforms???? Forgotten on purpose??? Don't you have your own easily exposable little agenda..?
Like I said, they've always had nothing to talk about for long. They're hypocrites. From swadeshi to India Shining! LOLOL!!!
Now that the inflation is down, WHERE are they???
Why don't you talk with data? Get some growth figures with timelines & we'll discuss the performance. OK?

Inflation is down because of oil prices? And wasn't it up because of the oil price surge? C'mon, answer that! Let's see if you can be fair! C'mon...!

6. Golden Quad: Yaamyn's already answered you & provided a link. Please refer to that.

If the Cong. is to blame for most of our ills (of the last 60 years), it should also get credit for most of the good that exists in today's India. I'm purely using your "in power for most of the time therefore..." argument. Agree?

7. Illegal immigration:
- You've only answered half my question. There are non-b'deshi immigrants. Why did you not answer that question you poorly disguised bigot?
- Read up about illegal immigration in Canada & Australia, before you talk please. Even the US declares Amnesty once every few years!!! You need to be careful when you talk KA... :-)
- You say: "Just because we didn't act in the past, doesn't mean we shouldn't act now". Does that point not apply to 1. above? :-)

2. contd... Conversation with Kislay, not with you. Too much multi-tasking!

8. Will vote for the Cong. If initial reports are to be believed, they've won in Delhi & Manipur (the North-East mess that they're blamed for...?) AND wrested back Rajasthan! Hopefully I will get to pop the bubbly when the results are finally declared! And may the bubbly keep flowing in India for centuries! Amen!

1conoclast said...

KA...

PS: You don't have an answer to the Gandhiji meek & Indira Gandhi strong question...?

1conoclast said...

US Amnesty...

http://www.usamnesty.org/

Forward thinking v/s bharat ko vapasi...?

You can't stop progress KA.

Kislay said...

@Someone who attacks cherished ideas or traditional institutions

"Only a very third rate person would try & shift the focus away from the bjp's & the sangh's misdemeanours in Orissa & Karnataka (& elsewhere of course!) to conversions!!! Only the insecure in their own religion need to fear conversions. And only the insecure & violent go about killing missionaries. And only absolute filth defends them!"

Who says they didn't do any wrong ? But then , you would never ever say that what the missionaries do is wrong as well . I guess , only stupid insecure Hindus who believe in "Sarva Dharma Sambhava" are against conversions by nefarious means . Those who are actually converting are NOT at all insecure , the fact that they want more numbers , like a corporation looking for more profits , is just a co-incidence , isn't it ? That they distribute pamphlets insulting my religion is to be completely overlooked , as it comes under "Freedom of speech" , right ? Those who are killing missionaries are VIOLENT . Those missionaries whose only aim is to convert as many people as possible are absolute filth as well . But then again , why am I bothering you with all this ? You would probably cook up some well articulated "essay" on why the Missionaries are God's own angels on Earth , and every Hindu who is against proselytizing is a scum bag , and why "fucking" with the Hindu core of India is absolutely justified . You talk about one-sidedness , what about being objective yourself ?

Krishna Aradhi said...

@ Yaamyn

Gosh, that's a huge reply. I'll come back after my exams get this week. I agree with some of your points, but not all. More later.

@ 1conoclast

Your blind worship of MMS amuses me. As for Arun Shourie, I recommend you read his articles on the nuclear deal. They are loaded with facts, so you shouldn't have a problem.

You guys cry over the Babri Masjid. What about the thousands of Hindu temples and great pieces of art that have been destroyed over centuries by Muslim invaders. Ever shed a tear for them?

Yaamyn, you say that Hindus should take recourse to justice against Christian conversions. Yes, they'll get justice, when large portions of India have been converted to Christianity. LOL!

In fact, if there is one incident in which justice has been relatively speedy, it is the Gujarat riots. Accept it, and give Modi the credit. Admit it, you have hardly any evidence that Modi was the one who incited the Gujarat riots. At least wait for the second part of the Nanavati Commission report. If Modi is found guilty, I'll be the first one to rip him apart. The Army was immediately called in on the second day that the riots erupted. Many people (Hindus and Muslims) died in police firing. So, when you say that the police didn't act during the riots, it amuses me even more.

More arguments later.

1conoclast said...

Kislay...

You should have tried to present the whole definition. Here it is:
"a person who attacks cherished beliefs, traditional institutions, etc., as being based on error or superstition". Source.

I may be terribly misinformed but based on whatever I have gleaned up till now, there is no evidence of forceful conversion. There may be inducement, but never force.
I personally don't think there is anything wrong with what the missionaries do, unless they use force. Therefore I don't criticize them.
Inducement too is appaling, but there is the law of the land to stop all of that.

Are you suggesting that on account of conversions of inducement (not force), the use of violence by these groups is somehow justified???

Hindus who believe in sarva dharma sambhav are the ones who're not insecure! Your statement is a little bit of an oxymoron!

If you feel insulted by their pamphlets, maybe it's reason to introspct why. If you had enough faith in your religion, the pamphlet wouldn't bother you? It doesn't bother me. Propaganda about Christ or Muhammad doesn't bother me either! I know that they're above criticism. If you believed that about Hinduism, you wouldn't be so bothered.

Every Hindu who is against proselytization is not a scumbag. Gandhiji is reported to have not very encouraging views on it. Those who resort to violence are scumbags!
I personally believe that all religions have preached far & wide. That is the purpose of Gurus, of Prophets... to spread knowledge & enlightenment far & wide. In India too the Sikh Gurus did it. Buddhists did it.
Within Hinduism there are many reconversion (or proselytization as you put it) attempts, notably Adi Shankaracharya, Swami Dayananda, Narendranath Dutt, and Swami Prabhupada.
It's been there all over, across centuries.
Some guys have chosen to highlight one aspect of it only now!!!
You may want to consider how Buddhism almost entirely disappeared from India. Who caused it to disappear? You're a bright guy. I'm sure you'll find the answers.

India doesn't need a Hindu core. Just like it needn't have had a Buddhist core. What India needs is more iron ore!

How's that for objectivity sweetheart? :-)

1conoclast said...

KA...

tch, tch, tch... SUCH inconsistency...!

I present fact after fact about Dr. Manmohan Singh & yet you call it blind worship...?
And THEN you point me to FACTS in shourie's artickles??? tch, tch, tch... SUCH inconsistency...! :-)

Your utter thought disarray is the source of as much merriment to me as your refusal to acknowledge what the World acknowledges about Dr. Singh. :-)

I also crow over exposing your inability to proffer any rebuttal on shourie's lack of credentials!!! :-D :-D

THIS IS SO MUCH FUN!!!!!!

Let's just talk Kakodkar. He has the credentials.

Why are you running away from the points I've put forward? Why aren't you adopting a point by point rebuttal stance? Because you have no answers! That's why!

And please don't read too much into shourie's facts! He has always been an expert at presenting selective facts. Not the whole truth.

I've said it before KA & I'll say it again. The right-wing & it's sympathisers don't have much to go on. You'll end up on the losing side with them.

Where did Babri creep into this???

On conversions, please see reply to Kislay above.

Will you present facts or will you just make tall claims about modi's actions?
At this link, you will find links to 3 different reports that indict modi & his govt. for the carnage that you're trying to shamelessly cover up.

sudhar jao... bure log ka saath nahi dete... Gandhiji ko nahi maante kya? Krishna ko nahi maante kya? Sach ka saath do! Live up to your name.

The people's verdict can be seen in Rajasthan & Delhi. The people are not as gullible as the bjp thinks they are.

Finally...

Why 2K... Why've you steered this discussion to Hinduism? Is that all you care for?? Is this discussion not about India anymore? Exposed again huh...?
:-)

Krishna Aradhi said...

@ 1conoclast

You refuse to read articles written by Arun Shourie. I know you wrote around two articles criticising him. Fine. You can at least do me a favour by reading his articles on the N-deal and criticising those articles too. Read his articles. Rebut him point by point. Present the other side of the story you accuse Shourie of not presenting.

I agree I am not as good at debates as you are. Well, I am trying to improve myself.

1conoclast said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
1conoclast said...

KA,

3 things:

1. I've executed a point by point rebuttal of shourie twice. Am not motivated to do it again. It's repetitive & he doesn't deserve that much of my attention. It's not like he's my favourite Tennis Player! :-)

2. When there are experts like Kakodkar (& the entire DEA) enumerating the benefits, what's the need for a rebuttal?

3. You are good. You have immsense talent. I'm just disappointed that you're using it for the wrong causes.

Krishna Aradhi said...

@ 1conoclast

Peace, for now. I'm sure we're going to clash like this for a long time to come :D However, here's the thing: as long as someone like Sheila Dikshit is not propped up as the PM candidate by the Congress, I won't even think of voting for that party. Currently, the BJP looks good to me - at least better than the Congress.

Sure, Manmohan Singh is a good economist. Under PVN Rao, he did a great job. The duo rocked. But, as a Prime Minister, we need a politician, not an economist. It's just my opinion, it's not necessary that you look at it that way. During difficult times, like the one we are currently going through, we need a strong leader.

1conoclast said...

KA,

That's the part I don't understand...

HOW can you continue to rate the bjp as better then the Cong. when their track record on every front has been proved to be poorer; whether it comes to development, economics, leadership, ideals, values, grace under fire, opportunism or their politicians. HOW can you not see???

Or do you refuse to see? That's worse than blind my brother...!!!

As for needing a politician in any sphere of life, I think we differ there. Rao & Singh rocked because they shifted India's focus from Politics to Development & Growth! Dr. Singh rocks for the same reason! We don't need a politician. We need someone who has vision & the ability to implement. Dr. Singh has both in ample measure. You will see. History will remember him kindly. Our kids will learn about him as one of the architects of modern India from their text books. Unless of course murli manohar joshi comes back to the HRD ministry. Highly unlikely though, based on current feelings.

You still haven't provided either a definition or an example of a strong leader.
Mahatma Gandhi? Indira Gandhi? Sonia Gandhi? Sharad Pawar?
Who do you consider strong? And why?

PS: You like Ms. Dixit because?

Yaamyn said...

@ KA,

Well, 1con's got a point. While Arun Shourie maybe considered a successful man, his list of accomplishments are dwarfed by the man you compare him to - Dr. Manmohan Singh

And by strong leader, I presume you mean someone who spends 500 crores of public money building up his image and that of his party?

SOme people enjoy sabre rattling, and a soundbyte every day. By that yardstick, Laloo Yadav is the strongest leader in India today.

But I differ in my view on that. You see, I much prefer the quiet, efficient types who know what they're doing - and DO THEIR JOB, which is GOVERNING.

1conoclast said...

Well said Yaamyn!

Now all they need to do is understand what you've said! And I say this without malice. I genuinely hope they understand!

1conoclast said...

The 2K's:

And we're not the only ones saying what we are. There are others, who you may be more inclined to believe.

Subhash Gatade (who has done his M.Tech - Mech Engg from Banaras Hindu University) writes.

Krishna Aradhi said...

@ yaamyn & 1con

I have read your comments, but will have to come back later to reply. Two more days :D

1conoclast said...

KA...

No Thanks Man!!! :-D

I'm tired now!!! There's a limit to which a man can argue a thread.

Remember the one about wrestling with a pig? Arguing with avowed rightists is a lot like that!

Kislay said...

It is not a question of India needing a Hindu core . It is not due to the machinations of the "RSS-BJP-VHP" that India has a Hindu core . It had one . It has one now . And this fact should be respected . And it should not be fucked with . No matter what you do or say about it . Or would you rather that all the followers of the Dharmic religions of India convert to the Abrahamic faiths ? Conversion is mostly wrong . What is wrong with the faith you were born in that you have to convert ? And I know there are groups which are being denied equal rights . I wish the "saviours" of my dharma would violently and passionately agitate for their cause . And I just read why was there a decline in Buddhism in India on Wikipedia . There are quite a few reasons , including a few agressive Hindu kings as well . But guess what , Muslim invaders at work again . I wonder why did not I think of that before . When a temple can be razed , why not a monastery ?

"If you feel insulted by their pamphlets, maybe it's reason to introspct why. If you had enough faith in your religion, the pamphlet wouldn't bother you? It doesn't bother me. Propaganda about Christ or Muhammad doesn't bother me either! I know that they're above criticism. If you believed that about Hinduism, you wouldn't be so bothered."

So I shouldn't bother about the fact that a bunch of zealots are bad-mouthing my religion , and let them do as they want . Sorry , I beg to differ . The right to freedom of speech does not imply that you are free to insult anyone and anything . It is wrong . Period . And what gets my goat is that the "secular" media very conveniently avoids all this . I am educated enough to understand that it is nothing but mere propaganda . But those who are being
targeted for conversion , are mostly not . And that is why it should be stopped . And propaganda was how the seeds for the Holocaust were sown . So it is not something which should be overlooked .


"Why 2K... Why've you steered this discussion to Hinduism? Is that all you care for?? Is this discussion not about India anymore? Exposed again huh...? :-)"

Because Hindusim is an integral part of India . Because both are intricately entwined together , and one cannot exist without the other.This land has been the home of Santana Dharma since ages . Call it a Hindu "Zion" if you want . Because we Hindus have been persecuted at the hand of Islam since 7th century . Because thousands of our temples have been destroyed and millions killed . Because I am seriously having doubts about "Sarva Dharma Sambhava" . When there are fanatics who proclaim that "Islam is the only true religion , and those who do not follow it are infidels" , why won't I start having doubts . Why should I be expected to be tolerant of such scum-bags, and allow them the liberty to live in a secular nation ? Religion for me was not very important . Religion should be more of a personal issue . But suddenly it has . Because of reasons like this - http://kislaychandra.blogspot.com/2008/11/lost-cause.html . And if ever I get a chance to sacrifice myself , it will still be for India , because for me , my country still comes first , unlike those who are obsessed with their "true faith" .

" The people's verdict can be seen in Rajasthan & Delhi. The people are not as gullible as the bjp thinks they are. "

The Congress did not win in Rajasthan . The BJP lost . The numbers tell that . Bravo to the people who turned out to be not as gullible as the BJP thought .

But what about the 2 states in which BJP did win ? They are condemned to hell , right ? I am glad that Sheila Dixit won in Congress , because apparently she did a good job . Ultimately that is what we all want . But I hardly think you will ever say that for a BJP government , which has been voted back to power .

"Remember the one about wrestling with a pig? Arguing with avowed rightists is a lot like that!"

I can say the same man . And I still am not an avowed rightist . But I guess , I soon will be one . There is only a limit to what one can take .

Yaamyn said...

@kislay:

You're first paragraph gives away a lot of your frustration - and of course, the inevitable resort to half truths.

Just think about it, you're sentences end up being contradictory.

You claim to hate one thing, and suggest the same thing as the solution to it.


.. would you rather that all the followers of the Dharmic religions of India convert to the Abrahamic faiths ? Conversion is mostly wrong . What is wrong with the faith you were born in that you have to convert?..

I think it's ludicrous that you're asking this question to 1conoclast here.

Perhaps conversion is wrong. Perhaps there's nothing wrong with the faith that you were born into. (I believe there isn't!)

I've also heard long sermons here about how even atheists are recognized under HInduism.. and how you can worship a monotheistic god in hinduism.. and how you can have the complete freedom of thinking in hinduism, unlike the abrahamic religions.

And despite that, if a lifelong hindu decides to convert, who would you point a finger at?

Christianity? Islam? The convert?

You talk about zealots who bad mouth your religion. That's wrong. A freedom of speech should never infringe upon another persons dignity.

If you KNOW of any such zealots, I say EXPOSE them. Tell us here, and we'll join you in condemning them and support any action taken against them.

But instead, you just talk about some medieval invaders, insinuate them as a larger 'Islamic' conspiracy (not to mention the so called 'Islamic' invaders themselves were branched into powerful Turkish and Persian empires with their own political agendas)

It's easy to pour out your frustrations on 'Islam' and 'Christianity'. Simple isn't it?

But Christianity has been in India since the first generation of its birth.

'Islam' might have reached India through the Turks and the Persians (much like Buddhism and Hinduism reached Afghanistan and South East Asia, through Indian kings) but that doesn't mean the Indians who follow Islam are any less pious towards their religion, no matter how hard you wish.

If you had a stronger case than a seventh century invasion, I would have taken you a bit more seriously.

But sadly, like the rest of the right-wing rhetoric you have obviously been subject to, you're arguments are lacking in substance, but brimming in passion. Which leads you to make statements like:

Why should I be expected to be tolerant of such scum-bags, and allow them the liberty to live in a secular nation ?

You have not specified clearly who 'such scum-bags' refer to.

If it's Christians and Muslims in general, I'm afraid those citizens also have the right to say:

So I shouldn't bother about the fact that a bunch of zealots are bad-mouthing my religion , and let them do as they want . Sorry , I beg to differ

When you criticize the Abrahamic religions that claim that theirs is the only true religion, you must also learn to respect the minority's right to think :

When there are fanatics who proclaim that "Only Hindus can be Indians, and those who do not follow it are aliens" , why won't I start having doubts

You say that Hindus have been persecuted 'since 7th Century" you forget to mention TILL WHEN?
The Muslims in India are today in no position to 'persecute' Hindus.

I haven't heard of any Hindu temples or monateries being 'razed' in the last hundred or more years at least. If you have, please enlighten me.

In fact, I see the reverse of what you accuse 'Islam' of happening.
I DO see Muslims being perscecuted, and I HAVE seen an ancient mosque being demolished.

Does it not bother you? Or is your Indian-ness and patriotism so intertwined with your Hindu-ness that you only see half the picture?

And oh. I personally believe that 'Sacrificing' yourself for the country is kind of jingoistic, if noble at heart.
I would much rather see intelligent, young Indians like you working hard, contribute to an inclusive society and build bridges rather than get inflammed at causes instigated by politicians and burn for it.

That's what I think will help India the best!

Kislay said...

1. I have nothing against Christianity , but I am definitely against the aggressive conversion campaign carried out by missionaries . The way I look at it , they are trying their damndest to change the demographics of India .

2."When you criticize the Abrahamic religions that claim that theirs is the only true religion, you must also learn to respect the minority's right to think" . I have a problem . I have everything against those who proclaim that their faith alone is true , and the rest are unworthy . Why the hell am I a kaafir and an infidel . When I am willing to extend the courtesy of tolerance and respects for other faiths , why can't it be reciprocated ?

3. And what half truths are you talking about man ? Are you denying that India was ravaged by Islamic invaders ? Are you denying that Nalanda and Takshashila never burned ? Of course , the Muslims are being persecuted now . But why ? What is the reason behind it ? And why am I expected to forget the History . Hell , why am I expected to forget the Kashmiri Pandits ? Or Assam and Malappuram (Kerala) ?

4. The demolition of Babri Masjid did bother me . Because it led to riots . And eventually gave birth to more soldiers for the cause of Jihad . And created communal rift . But it is not a part of my heritage . Babur razed down the temple that was there , and built it . So , I am not sad that it is not there . The World weeps over the events of 6th December . Who is crying for what India has lost in the past ?

5."When there are fanatics who proclaim that "Only Hindus can be Indians, and those who do not follow it are aliens" , why won't I start having doubts" . Again , if you put your country before your religion , there won't be an issue at all . You are an alien to this land if your beloved religion is more dear to you than your motherland .

6. "Hinduism reached Afghanistan and South East Asia, through Indian kings" Sanatana Dharma was always here , in India . That is why the name . And this stupid name was given to it by the Brits .

7."Or is your Indian-ness and patriotism so intertwined with your Hindu-ness that you only see half the picture?" It is more or less the same thing for me . But country still comes first . I am seeing the whole picture , but what is making me ignore half of it is the way that picture is being painted .

I think I have had my share of "War of the Words" . Sorry for polluting your blog with my "right-winged" rhetoric . And for my passion as well .

1conoclast said...

Kislay...

No time right now to respond in detail, but I will say 3 things:

1. On Propaganda: STOP reading (or talking to) right-wingers! They're poisoning your otherwise fine mind!
2. On Conversion: a) There is nothing wrong with it! Christ was born a Jew. Try telling him that conversion is wrong! b) Please read up about how primarily Buddhist India was converted to Hinduism. Please find out how Jainism's decline came about. You will find that Hinduism is as guilty of conversion. It only calls it assimilation.
3. Read Romila Thapar. Before you read her, read about her on Wiki. Once you're thoroughly satisfied of her world renowned, unbiased credentials, then read her. Read her book on Somnath.

1conoclast said...

Kis...

To your point # 3 above:

Islamic invaders is as laughable a term as the p-sec term you were recently celebrating on your blog. Were the Brits Christian Invaders? Didn't they ravage our land?
Again... STOP listening to the right-wingers! They're misleading you!!
For their gain!!!

Ask them why they don't focus their energies on ridding the religion of the ills that you mentioned on your blog.

Also you might find that "no major evangelical movement" is inaccurate. Adi Shankara, Dayananda, Vivekananda & Prabhupada (in the US) were all big evangelists!

I repeat: Talk to me, NOT to them!

kaffir said...

First things first. Though a bit late in coming, the Congress party HAS apologized and taken the blame for incident. Sonia Gandhi apologized.

You idiots!! An apology is not the same as justice and cannot be a substitute for it. Do you really understand the concept of *justice* and what it means, and why it needs to be applied to all political parties which indulge in killing innocents, irrespective of your liking and support for a particular party?? You blame BJP/Hindutva but you are equally bad and as morally corrupt as Hindutva-supporters in rationalizing your support for Congress and those who broke the law, and killed innocents.

Next time I kill your family member using state machinery, I'll simply tender my apology to you, and according to your logic, that should be good enough for you and we can be friends after that. Explain that logic to a Sikh who lost her family in the 1984 riots. By your logic, it should be OK with you if Modi apologizes, right?

Effing rationalizing idiots!!!!!!!!!!!!

kaffir said...

Learn to separate the issue of law-and-order and justice from politics and which party (Gandhi-sycophant Congress, or Hindutva BJP) turns you on. Once you start mixing the two, rationalizations are inevitable.

Yaamyn said...

@kaffir :

Yes, Kaffir. I agree with you totally. That's why I began my argument with the statement that 'I WILL NOT DEFEND the Congress' on that count. They ARE Guilty of the Sikh Riots, and i'm sure even today there ARE Sikh families still suffering from the injustice and trauma of facing a genocide in the Capital city of India.

I'm not saying an apology is equal to justice. My point is that
a) Unlike the remorseless BJP and Narendra Modi, the Congress HAS expressed its regret and apologized to the Nation. When the party president and Prime Minister of the country apologizes, it's a healing touch.
When the Vatican apologizes for the Church's cruelty in the past century, it surely doesn't amount to 'Justice' for the victims.. but it's a vindication of truth.
The truth is that the Congress is responsible for the mass killing of Sikhs in Delhi in the early 1980s - and the Congress has accepted that truth.

The truth is also that Narendra Modi and his Hindutva inspired government engineered Genocide in Gujarat a few years ago... and he shows absolutely NO REMORSE for his actions. IN short, a win for the Hindutva Nazis.

b) My second point was that TODAY the Congress CANNOT be called, by any stretch of imagination, as a racist organization that carries out targeted propaganda against any ethnic or racial minority.
In stark contrast, the BJP and its violent sister organizations routinely carry out engineered attacks on Churches and mosques and houses of minority community wherever they have the least influence.
Its open policy of 'Divide and Rule' is plain for anyone to see. The Anti-Muslim and Anti-Christian propaganda spews from their ranks.. whether its the grassroots militants, or the top level wannabe PM. It condones rapists, offers election tickets to terror suspects, provides lawyers to seditious anti-nationals, doesn't pass a meeting without violent, inflammatory speeches, itches for war, foments troubles in tribal lands to urban cities... and oh, yes. It carries out Genocide and is proud of it.

There's NO COMPARING a militant Hindutva indoctrinated family of violent organizations and a POLITICAL PARTY such as the Indian National Congress.

THAT, in brief, is what I'm trying to say.


See the difference?

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